[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to season four of the Mic Dupp show where every mortgage has a story.
We are the ultimate hub where the hidden stories behind the mortgage industry come to life. I'm Michael Kelleher. Today I'm solo. In every episode we dive deep into the entrepreneurial spirit, the strategic insights and the breakthrough innovations that built the world's greatest mortgage companies. So whether you're advancing your career or scouting for industry leaders or exploring opportunities in fintech or prop tech, you're in the right place. Get ready to unlock the story behind every mortgage. Let's dive in today with Tom Davis, chief sales officer at Deep Haven Mortgage. He's also co chair of the non agency forum that's part of the Mortgage Bankers association that I've actually been able to partake in and listen him. I believe it's Lisa do a wonderful job together of educating our industry that one in six deals are going this way and if you're not part of that, it's, it's going to be a lot harder than it needs to be. So thank you Tom. Appreciate you taking the time to jump on here today.
Anything before we kind of get into your story you want to share with the audience?
[00:01:20] Speaker B: Yeah, no, look, I think in every challenging market there's opportunity. Either you take share or someone takes it from you. And in today's environment, I think with higher rates, refi cash out game, you're seeing that deteriorate. So you have to look at all products and look at ways to drive level production within other products in the market you're not seeing being utilized today.
There's, there's niches out there that you could leverage to really grow your business.
[00:01:53] Speaker A: So you've all, since I've known you, since I've been introduced to you, probably seven years ago, maybe longer, but you've always been ahead of the curve when it comes to product. Well, everybody went technology, you went, you know, we're actually in the mortgage industry guys and you've been able to be right.
[00:02:14] Speaker B: So
[00:02:16] Speaker A: what got you, what drew you into the mortgage? Have you also always been on the, the niche side or was it something a different position brought you to where you are today?
[00:02:26] Speaker B: Yeah, pretty much. Pretty. I've been in mortgage pretty much right out of college and was in the mortgage space out of the, before the great financial crisis. So I was a loan officer, then I became a wholesaler, account executive.
And then we saw these products that, you know, the, the, the products that were being manufactured, the private label stuff being manufactured pre financial crisis, all that stuff Basically went away. And that collateral back then is actually different than today's non agency or non QM collateral. We'll talk about that later on on the show. But when the market went away, right Everything went really like FHA VA and then you know, your convention conventional, the, the, you know, the agencies really stepped in and that was the game. Early after the financial crisis I went to an area that and I specialized in a pro program called the USDA 522 guaranteed rental housing program which is a Ginnie Mae product. It was very niche, a lot of folks never heard about it. And that's where my stripes and mortgage for about seven years I was an industry expert on the USDA 502 guaranteed rural housing program in the states that I covered at about a 70 market share and it was only one product.
So 7 out of every 10 loans I was buying across the country in my market and had a commanding, dominating market share. And instead of competing on price, I competed on expertise, knowledge and focused and help our clients in these, these, these states to you know, leverage their product to, to, to create, you know, a niche and a, create opportunity in a very challenging market. Today we're on the opposite side of that, right?
The conventional government kind of products.
That market share is hyper, hyper competitive. And I saw an opportunity over the last, let's call it 7, 8 years as margins compress originations going from a $4.4 trillion market to as well as 1.8 a year, year and a half ago.
I thought originators, the refi cash out game that will which was 75% of the market that piece I saw that going away with rates increasing and there was a lot of margin compression and consolidation. So I started focusing early, early on early adopter in the non agency space which is predominantly non qm your equity products and then rtl which is your fix and flip and bridge. So those products allow you to differentiate yourself and allow you to tap into new referral partners and allow you to just grow in areas where others aren't really focused on.
So there's a saying out there, the riches are in the niches. So I always try to focus on the niches and help our customers leverage these products, tap into the referral partners, grow their business. And so really in my career I never really focused on price or competed in price. I always focused on expertise, knowledge and focused and focusing on parts of the market where I thought there was upside.
And based on the backdrop of the economy and backdrop of the rate environment, a backdrop of the type of borrowers or trends. Whether it's investor transactions increasing to an all time high last year at 30%. So focusing on areas where I'm seeing shifts in the market, being an early adopter and first mover, there's to create a competitive damage.
[00:05:59] Speaker A: Before we keep going down your personal path.
You have me really my juices flowing. It seems on pace with what we're talking about right now.
There is so much trapped equity in the industry right now and I talk to about it all the time with an industry peer, Ralph Armenta and is just and he's been saying it for four, five, six years now. There seems to be new product coming on the market and also new technologies and you have banks that may do it themselves or I know many banks that don't do it themselves. It just seems it's a lot of different tentacles or a lot of fragmentation that sounds like it's slowly moving into a more uniform offering. Can you help us make sense of this home equity market? Where it was and where it's going, where it is today and where it's going.
[00:07:01] Speaker B: Yeah, we could have a whole session on this. But here's the deal. Here's the deal. It's a generational opportunity. And what I mean by that is you have 35 trillion in in top in equity in the United States. 35 trillion all time high.
You have 80% of Americans have a REIT under 5%.
Borrowers are in these lower note rates, you know in the fours and threes. They're never going to refinance out of that property. It's cheap money. It doesn't make sense, economic sense for them to refi, cash out. Refi cash out.
Right. So people are staying in their homes longer. They're not planning to get rid of that first lien and originators who are waiting rates to come down to hopefully refinance these folks. That's a big mistake that originators are making today.
What I would highly suggest is take a proactive approach and introduce equity products to those borrowers that are not going to refinance. Cash out through a first link and what I mean and why is that an opportunity? Let me just give you some numbers. So we talked about 35 trillion in tappable equity in the United States. You actually have 5 trillion in consumer debt. It's at an all time high whether it's auto student or auto student or credit card debt. 5 trillion. The average age of a home in the United States. We have aged housing stock here in the US it's 40 to 50 years old. So people are going to be staying in their homes longer. They don't plan the move right because they can't afford to trade up into a higher note rate. They can't afford the higher taxes, the higher insurance and they're stuck because of these low note rates. But their average age of a home is 40 to 50 years old. So people want to renovate their homes to current market standards, right? You also have a 19 million investment properties in the United States that account for 40, 49.5 million doors. Those investors, those savvy investors, they probably refinancing at a low rate on the first. So what we're seeing is we're seeing them take cash out of their investment properties through an equity product and then they're leveraging that to go buy more investment properties through a DSTR loan, right? Or they could take the cash out, they're savvy and depending on what experience they have, they can actually use that can be they're taking out their investment property to go build a new home through ground up construction, to renovate unhabitable properties and bring them back into the market through a fix and pull it. So, so that's, that's, that's one technique. You're seeing investors leverage equity through a DSCR second to do that. And then there's multiple of other reasons why people are leveraging their, their equity. Whether it's life events, paying kids through college, they want to fund their business. We have over 18 million self employed people in the United States that account for over 30 million businesses. Self employed, access to capital to grow their business, or you want to be opportunistic. And here's another fact. In the United states you have 24 million millionaires. Of that 24 of the 24 million millionaires represent 40% of the populace of the the world millionaire population.
And of those 24 millionaires, only six of them are actually millionaires that have a net worth over a million with liquid assets.
18 million millionaires. Of the 24 millionaires in the United States, 75% of the millionaires are millionaires because they're equity rich.
And so you have this backdrop equity rich, all time high equity consumer debts on an all time high. People want to renovate their homes and originators that are waiting for rates to come down to refinance or past clients are making a massive mistake. What they should be doing is picking up the phone and congratulating their, their past clients. Hey, congratulations on the equity. Congratulations on that low grade I gave you. Have you Ever thought about refinancing it or, you know, have you ever thought about consolidating your debt? Are you looking to renovate your home?
Do you have what other, you know, things that you have going in life? You know, you have all this equity, you could use it as a tool and another reason, and it's a great conversation to stay in touch, you know, with that borrower. Yeah. And they have a financial need, right. So, and I'll tell you this, if the originators are not picking up the phone and not staying in front of their clients, you know, who is the servicer?
And so originators today, brokers or bankers, do a suboptimal poor job at retaining and recapturing their past clients. In fact, they only have about when the client does a second loan, whether it's a purchase refi equity product, usually that borrower is going somewhere else more than 70% of the time.
So, you know, imagine you having a store and the borrower, you know, comes to your store, gets up a loan, but 70% of the time after they visit you, they give it to the competitor down the street and they buy from them. And a lot of times when brokers or bankers are originating loans and they sell the loan to the servicer, right, they're, they're, that's their partner, their investor, but it's also their largest competitor because they're aggressively soliciting their past clients. And if you don't stay in front of the, if the originator doesn't stay in front of them today, they're making a big mistake because not only are they losing out on the equity loan, but when it's time to do refi, cash out the servicer, if they own the first and second, they have over a 90% recapture rate. And so not only do you lose the borrower today, but you're losing the borrower in the future.
And so that equity piece is generational. There's a full suite of products out there that you could leverage at dp. And we have a full suite of equity solutions, whether it's a closed end with AltDoc, whether it's bank statement P and L DSER and then also we allow for have a digital HELOC similar to a couple of the other ones that are in the marketplace.
What's different than ours is that we allow for bank statements from alternative docs.
If the loan doesn't fit the box, we could underwrite it on a manual basis and look to approve that loan. So having a full suite of equity is extremely important. As important as having a full suite of non qm.
Wow.
[00:13:14] Speaker A: I, I think about the flag football game that just occurred out there in la. Everybody tuned in and going into it we were already talking about NFL players and who's going to play in the flag football Olympics and dreaming of the best combination possible.
And if, if anybody watched the game, the rules are so different in the game and the body type that works it has totally re engineered everybody's. It's going to be the narrative for the next three years.
Do we go with the USA team that was, you know, amateurs but have not lost a game in flag football worldwide or do we try and find the tyree kill this different body type and try and get them out there and playing and we could debate or go into side parts of. Of why or why that wouldn't work. I guess my, my point is very hard. Teach old dogs new tricks and then it's even harder to get the people that I, you know, say always was this way to start thinking new.
Especially when it doesn't make sense that the example I said doesn't make sense how this person could be better than Mahomes or, or Jalen hurts or borrow the loan officer that exists today.
Going back when I originated, we were just we're paid enough so we always did a first. But the numbers you gave, if you just got a little bit of a lot, you're going to make a lot more in this industry than a lot of. Bit of a. A lot of little. Everybody's locked in. Can you teach so that the lead, like what I'm getting to is to the leaders.
[00:14:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:53] Speaker A: Can you teach the pros at firsts into becoming seconds or is it better to go out there and get people that are great at call centers and bring them in and have them.
[00:15:05] Speaker B: Well, yeah, it's. Everyone's a little bit. Everyone has a different, let's call it the strategy or has a different model. You know, offering equity works in every model. Right. I know some mega brokers that are doing three to like 300, 400 million a month just an equity. There's all the banks are on helocs and closing seconds. All the banks for helocs. Right. So here's the deal. Every single borrower that your audience has done a loan with and over the last 10 to 15 years, they have equity. They already have the clients.
They don't need to go find new clients. I would start in your old client base. And what's nice about that is you could, if you're a senior leader Right. An executive, you run sales at a retail shop.
All you need to do is create a marketing campaign to hit all your past clients you've ever done a loan with and say, hey, we have these tools. Do you want to renovate? Do you want to consolidate your debt? And we're seeing it, we're seeing it happen right now. Like they're putting their, their, their, you know, for example, on our eloc, you know, we, we have a white Google product where all you need to do as a loan officer is put your link on your email signature or you can create flyers, or we have flyers and you just, or email, you know, playbook that you could just send to all your clients you've ever done loans with in the last 10 to 15 years. They all have equity, they all have a financial need, they all have want to consolidate, they all want to renovate their homes. And you could mass market your last client base and drive leads for your loan officers. I mean, I don't know like which there's only a small amount of loan officers or people in our industry that are making more money than they made last year. And the people are making more money are the people who are focusing on all the products available in the market, not just the equity, but non QM side too. Right? Because between non QM equity and fix and flip and bridge and ground up construction, that's about a $400 billion market in 2026.
And if we're in a $2 trillion market, that splits one out of four, one out of every five deals.
A loan officer can't afford to not embrace and adopt these products because if they don't, they're losing their borrowers and they're losing their referral partners to other folks in the market. Right? And I'm teaching our clients to go to pick up market share and, and to penetrate relationships by leveraging these products. I mean, think about this like the top 5% of realtors in the United States, top 5%, they, they have 90% of the listings in the United States.
The bottom 95% of realtors only have 10% of the listings, right? So the people that are moving rate weight in real estate are the top 5% of realtors up 90% of the listings. So we're teaching originators to leverage a full suite of non qm, full suite of equity, full suite of ground up, fix and flip it and ground up, fix and flip and bridge loans to tap into the top 5% of realtors who have the transactions. Because if there's two LOS that they work with, you know, they've probably worked with for the last 10 years and those are their go to for all their products. If you have expertise, knowledge and focus and non agency on 9gm seconds and RTL and then you could penetrate that relationship and say, hey, I know you work with, with Mike and Tom on all your other stuff, but let me tell you why you should do business with me and I can help you make more money, right? And I can help you close more deals. Once you start getting those deals, you're going to get the other business. And the reason they're going to call you is because their ellos don't have expertise, knowledge and focus and non agency. And we're talking about a segment of the market where that we're serving 18 million self employed folks, 19 million investment properties. We're talking about credit events, high income, high net worth, we're talking about foreign nationals. Over 40 million people in the United States were not born here. That's 15% of our population.
So these are non laudable condos, right? Just like agency borrowers, there's non agency borrowers in every single town, right? So if you're not doing business in non agency or non QM or equity, there's borrowers with equity in every town. And if you're not targeting them and you don't know the products and you don't have a grasp on the products, you're not going to be comfortable selling it, you're not going to be comfortable presenting it to referral partners in your markets. So we spend a lot of time with our customers and partners who we know that they don't have the expertise. And so we spend a lot of time coming up with a strategic plan, doing ongoing training and helping our clients to actually build champions in the organization. And once you have folks in their organization that are doing these loans and everyone catches on and everyone wants to embrace it because they're like Mike's income is up 30% year over year, right. And how is he doing it? I need to see what he's doing. I mean here's another interesting fact. Last year alone the, the investor part of the market, if you look at purchase transactions, was 30%, the highest ever unrecorded history. So I would challenge everyone that's listening. Go to your, go to your, your production for 20, 25. Look, if it's 20, if it's 30% and if it's not, then you're under indexing the market, you're at 9 or 10%, right? You gotta understand why it's one out of every three loans are investor transactions last year. So if, if that's not your book of business, then that's not where you're at. Then what's the reason for. Well, I'll tell you the reason. More likely the organization or the loan officer is not, not paying attention to the investor space. They don't have a full suite of industrial solutions. So and what I mean by a full suite is, you know, having a DSER product, having a 5 to 9 product, having a DSER segment so investors could cash out to do more deals. In the United states, we have a 5 million under supply of housing, 5 million. We expect that supply demand imbalance to be around to the year 2040.
So loan officers can be a part of the solution and help bring inventory into the market. How do you do that? Construction, renovation, bring in new inventory through construction into the market and then bringing uninhabitable properties back into the market.
Right. So now you're actually working with the, the builder, the developer, the real estate investor. You're providing the financing for the build, right? Then when the loan is done, then you get the takeout loan for the consumer or the investor that the SCR loan, so on. On any new construction or renovation, you got two deals versus the consumer. It might take five, you know, every, they might have a deal every five year, five years. And the real estate investor does five to seven transactions a year. So if you get four or five or six of those referrals, now you're adding repeat business, potentially two deals for every transaction. The investors, you know, are in their community, other, other investor buddies. Instead of hunting for purchase transactions one at a time, you could, you know, working in the investor space and having a full suite of investor solutions really gives you a competitive advantage. And if you don't have it, you're at a disadvantage and you can't compete.
[00:22:16] Speaker A: I'm going a little against what I, what people think my brand is in the industry, but the fact that so many leaders in our industry and my peers, and maybe myself, probably myself, the fact that we spend more hours looking at tech demos and not listening to what you just said told us, which is cookie crumbs all along the way on different ways, not only can you make a lot more money, but you can begin to tell a story. You can begin to connect dots on domino deals and start to put it all together. I always say, or this is where I've shifted. Now you got to own your zip code. And I think this is a perfect Example of why we will work on taking a lot of these facts and putting in a way you can digest. But if you just focus on everything you said and dominating your, your zip code with multiple products and be able to handle it, then turn it into equity loans and equity loans need to buy gutters and equity loans, pay for pools and equity and you become the money person in town.
It's the only way to offset all these enclosed portals that are really going to start taking over where you can't even compete against all these incentives in these marketplaces you don't have access to on closed listing.
[00:23:30] Speaker B: So is closed listings not to compete? But you know, for me it's to dominate. And if you could, if you have products and you have the expertise, knowledge and focus like I don't like competing, I like to win and win all the time. Right. So you, we, I see it in our client base. I mean we're coming off an all time record for our company. We're in you know, March. This is going to be an all time record for lock volume for us a month ever. In the 12, 30 years that there are companies, 13 years our company's been around. But we, we and we have, you know, 500 correspondents, 4,000 plus brokers. We get a lot of best practices from our clients and we share those, those strategies and those practices with our clients. Like the zip code piece like you know, comment that you mentioned. I live in South Florida near the beach. You know there's a lot of single family ranches from the 1950s, 60s that were built down here.
They're tearing those things down and are doing new construction and.
Right. And I see, you see it everywhere down here, all the way down into Miami, South Florida. People are renovating, tearing down their homes, building new so getting into with on those projects. Everyone down here has equity. You have a lot of foreign national, you know, you know more than 50% of condo purchases in South Florida are foreign national. You have a lot of unwarrantable condos in the state of Florida.
The top ten self employed cities in the United States. Florida has six of the top ten self employed cities in the United States.
Right. So what does that tell me? Self employed.
Right. A lot of self employed people. Entrepreneurial, spirited state.
That's a bank statement alone. So people in South Florida should focus on bank statement. There's a ton of investors down here, foreign national investors, you know, so just you know, your traditional investor, etc.
So we need to renovate, fix and flip and everyone down here in South Florida has equity and so there's you know if I just had a conventional or FHA ba and conventional product I would be lose. I would be you know, not capturing a sizable part of the market because Florida is a top 3 non GM state same as California. So you can't compete in in Florida and you can't compete in California as a loan officer if you don't have these products.
[00:25:57] Speaker A: So it's not just own your zip code, it's know your zip code and then obviously dominate. We're going to take a quick break with our our sponsors because they really help different lenders dominate. Always looking for new sponsors to support the show and always looking for our listeners to to our sponsors let them know we sent you.
We'll be right back after this quick minute.
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[00:27:30] Speaker A: Alright, so first half I think we laid the groundwork. Second half as we wrap up here in our final 10 minutes, you've been leader of some unbelievable companies as the sales leader, some great positions. You obviously know how to not just sell yourself but run a sales team.
What are some of the signals you think loan officers should be looking at in their community? I know you talked about scenarios but if you were running a sales team, what would be the first signals you would say look for and then maybe what are some of the techniques you would say they should start to use when they hear those signals?
[00:28:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean from.
That's a good question. We could talk on that.
We could cover a lot there.
I would say just understanding the opportunity and putting an action plan together and actually working that plan is important. Right?
There's opportunity in every Market it's either you get or someone else takes it from you. Right. And so understanding your market and then coming up with the plan of where you want to tap into. So like I said in the United if I'm in South Florida, right. Very entrepreneurial spirited, I know that. How do I get in front of the self employed people? How do I drive referrals of self employment borrowers my way? Right.
In that scenario you actually go work with CPAs and accountants. How many loan officers are actually working with CPAs and accountants as a referral source? Like I'd go to a CPA conference and I'd put up a booth. I'd get to all the CPAs in my backyard and share flyers that I specialize in helping self employed. Right. That's, that's an example that a loan officer. There's more self employed people in the United States and there's veterans. Right. You're, you know, if you're an ELO and on your side or you're a company on your, on your site. If you don't have self employment solutions, you got to start marketing that. Right? Same for investors.
Large, large investor space. Start one out of every 31 out of every three deals as investors. How can a loan officer get better at that or tap into that? There's investor clubs in every town. They meet on a Thursday, Wednesday, once a month.
Go to that investor club, be a part of that investor club. Bring your end to end solutions because then you can tell those investors there that they don't have to sign up with three different investors for end to end solutions. If you're working with Deep Haven, you have not your standard non investor product. You have equity investor or equity solution products. And then you have RTL fix and Flip and Rich.
So go to the investor meetings, meet with the investors present on those products. That's a great way to get. That's where I would start because obviously between the self employed and the investor, that's where 80% of the production is coming in the non TM space. On the equity space. You already have a book of business that you've done business as a lo or a company.
I would target those folks.
I would work with roofers in their backyard. How many? Or the home magazine that you know folks were kitchen remodels and roofers. I know a lot of los that are crushing it on the equity piece because someone needs a roof cost 40, 50,000.
Right.
You don't have to cash to pay for it. How are they going to do it? They can Leverage the equity and get a line of credit to pay off the roof. Potentially consolidate their debt and you know, maybe consolidate the credit card do you know, some renovation and the payment might be lower depending on how much credit card debt they have. So renovation companies is another one. So I would say for the loan officer, I mean rates aren't coming down, rates are going to stay elevated. And I would tell every loan officer, every company here, if you're waiting on rates to come down for refi cash outs, the cash out game is not first lien refi cash out. The cash out game is equity cash out through second liens and first liens. So see what's interesting is in the United states, you have 40 million people in the United States that own their homes free and clear.
All the originators that we, that are, I would say the vast majority that are listening to this, everyone's focusing on purchase and refis.
Right.
40% of Americans don't have a, don't have a mortgage. That's a great opportunity for a first lean HELOC to, to, to help them with their financial needs because they have financial needs, whether it's consolidating their, their, their consumer debt or it's renovating their home. So that's a targeting market that I'm sure many folks don't even pay attention to. But it's almost half of Americans own their homes outright because we're equity rich country. Right.
So how do you tap into that?
[00:32:41] Speaker A: Yeah, and it's probably different demographics. The easiest one to relate to is probably the aging in place. Baby boomer children are visiting their parents in a cavernous house and trying to figure out how to, what to do with that equity. When this housing market's the way it is. Right. It certainly an easy way to tell them there are vehicles without having to sell when you don't want to.
[00:33:13] Speaker B: I mean it, I, I think, I think a first sling HELOC is probably better than a, or a H better than a, a reverse mortgage or an ATI where they're giving up equity.
Right. So all the reverse mortgage kind of originators, that's a first lien. HELOC is an alternative to what you're doing today
[00:33:32] Speaker A: when you focus on equity, which is really what homeownership is about.
It sounds like it changes the narrative from a negative to a positive sometimes too. And you can really lean into that branding wise that you're a solutions person that cares about helping customers better utilize their equity and that's what the equity is there for in many Cases.
[00:33:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say if you're an originator today and you're not staying in front of your clients, I think the best originators in the country, they stay engaged with their past clients. They always follow up. This is one of the best conversations that you could have.
Congratulations on your equity.
That rate that you have, you'll never see that again.
What are you trying, do you have any financial goals that you're trying to do right now? What does that look like?
And that's an easy conversation. You can have that with every client you've ever done a loan with. And you know, there's surveys out there that, that, that show that a lot of borrowers don't even know that close then seconds and HELOCs even exist. A high percentage of the borrowers, they are sitting on all this, this equity and they don't know how to tap into it. And so I think being an educator, you know, I think the best originators out there are educators, right? They, they, they, they make the borrower feel at ease. They, they can show them why it makes sense to use this product. If someone's pitching them a refi cash out, they have to pay points, right. And bring, you know, to get a certain rate.
You know, they're paying off a $400,000 mortgage at 3 and they're borrowing a hundred grand, you know, for some rehab and debt consolidation.
If you're an originator and you say, hey, this doesn't make financial sense, I know this company is trying to sell you on this product, but if you do an equity here when it, you know you're going to win them, if your payment is lower and you could show them why it doesn't make sense to get rid of that 3% mortgage.
Because in the future when it's time to do the refi cash out, they're going to come to you because you give them advice that, that, that makes sense and doesn't put them in a worse position instead of just trying to get a deal. So you want these clients for life. And you know, you know, I think as an originator, you know, having these products and being able to show, you know, the benefits or the features to the borrower is extremely important. That's why I said you get, you have to be a product knowledge expert when it comes to these products.
[00:36:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And a final question. Hard to follow up when you're making great point after great point. All I have to do is just recap this after and make sure that people understand what opportunity is here in that opportunity and you're welcome to say anything in this outro, but my question would be loan officer loves this, wants to work with Deep Haven. How do they get it up to their capital markets or their lender?
Is that, are people doing that today or do you have to hope that the lender wants to roll it out?
[00:36:42] Speaker B: No, they're, they're los. We're seeing people embrace from the yellow level all the way to the, the executive level.
The reality is that it, you know, in. So a lot of non QM investors in the marketplace only do non qm. There's very few, if not, I'm not aware of any non QM investor. I don't consider ourself a non QM investor. I consider ourself a non agency investor. We have non QM that's going to hit 150 to 80 billion in 2026. There's equity that's going to be about 120 to 150 billion. There's RTL, which is fix and flip bridge and ground UP construction, another 50 billion. And then you throw the jumbo stuff. So you're, we're a 400 billion market. If you're an originator, you're a mortgage company. You don't have a full suite of, of, of non agency. Yes. Then you're at a competitive disadvantage. Working with Deep Haven is like, working with is like getting three investors approved because you would have to go get someone in non qm. You would have to get someone has a full suite of equity including a digital heloc. There's only a handful of folks in the United States that have a digital heloc. Deep Haven is the only one on the non QM side. And we do full doc and altdoc. Yeah, right.
First wing and second wing, digital HELOC and then we have the RTL.
But yeah, I would reach out to
[email protected] or you could reach me directly@t davishavenmortgage.com we'll get you set up. We'll put together a discovery call and you know, and see what your needs are, what areas you want to tap into, where you know, where you are from. You know, just adoption point. And you know, I would leave the group or the audience with this. There's the difference between a pro and an amateur is training the pros, you know, and the money they make. Pros, they train all the time. That's why they make pro money. The amateur makes the amateur money because they're not training and so it's all about training. So if you're not training your ELOs and you're not spending time with them and educating them on how about these products, how to source them, where to find these topper borrowers, how to look at different referral partners and what's happening is those originators aren't originating this stuff and it doesn't just happen on non QM or these products. There's a lot of originators or mortgage companies out there that have these products or other products of renovation 2 or 3Ks, some of these other manufactured homes. But the reason the LOS don't sell it is because they're not comfortable selling it and you know they haven't been trained on how to sell it and the features and the advantages.
So I would say spend time with your teams, educate them, train them. We have a best in class training support. We do, I would say over a hundred webinars a month for our clients. We do in person presentation sales rallies, webinars, we'll even do white label presentations with our clients to their realtor and referral partners.
So it takes non QM and non agency takes a very hands on approach and we'd love to help you grow your business.
[00:39:52] Speaker A: I was biting my lip the whole time you are speaking where I try to talk about which is there is so much opportunity out there if you don't stay entirely addicted to the GS that just basically selling rates and you find different opportunities to own your zip code, to go to deep haven and find ways to train better yourself, be a financial planner and a loan officer, give that message and I think hopefully some of the listeners today on our journey understand that that's part of product, is part of going into the heart of mortgage innovation.
Thank you for joining us on this journey into the heart of mortgage innovation.
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