Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Mic'd Up Show. This is season four. Our tagline is where every mortgage has a story.
This is the ultimate hub where the hidden stories behind the mortgage industry come to life. I'm Michael Kelleher.
[00:00:14] Speaker B: Good morning. I'm Michael Zao.
[00:00:16] Speaker A: And in every episode, we dive deep into the entrepreneurial spirit, the strategic insights and the breakthrough innovations that build the world's greatest mortgage companies. And Chris is, is no different going from insurance broker to starting from the bottom and building a empire that he has now. And we'll get to hear all of the journey of how he got there. So if you follow along, whether you're advancing your career, scouting for industry leaders or exciting opportunities in fintech or prop tech or mortgage and housing in general, you're in the right spot. Get ready to unlock the story behind every mortgage. Let's dive in with Chris Vinson, who you'll hear how Plains Commerce bank is involved in his story, but he is running the mortgage department and it has transformed over the years from being a broker with his wife. Chalice, I believe is her name, who came from. Well, she was CEO and HR at one point. And you'll hear the journey of how they end up becoming the retailer in South Dakota that continued to gain and gain and gain market share.
Welcome, Chris. We always start, Chris White, taking our audience into some scenario story from your past. Can you talk about the fact that this is kind of like a great movie? We'll start halfway through. Can you talk about your winning market share and market share in South Dakota and you want to impact lives beyond the, the borders of that state? It's intimidating when we hear the word boardroom and you tell that as part of your story. What was it like that day preparing to go into the boardroom. And then when you got into the boardroom, what were some of the rebuttals you got and what was your pitch for those in the audience that don't know what it was and, and how it became today?
[00:02:05] Speaker C: Yeah, so, I mean, this is 08 and Chalice and I went in the room. Chalice was in private banking, a little bit of mortgage. She was just, you know, more of an assistant type roles that. So I want to make sure that's she's going to correct me later. So I'm going to make sure I get that for the record. Right. But you know, we're sitting in there and we're really at this point in time knowing that 09 is not going to be 09, but that 09 was going to change in how we disclose.
And back then warehouse lines weren't as popular. And so I was trying to get build up my warehouse lines to be able to fund so I didn't have to disclose and all the different changes in disclosing. And of course you're like, Chris, it was borrower paid, no big deal. Okay, no big deal deal today. But in 09 that was a big deal because this would be a complete change into the industry.
And so as I was growing in these warehouse lines, I went to this bank in Plains Commerce and we pitched this. I'd been told no a few times and they said we don't want to give you a warehouse line, we want to buy you. And Pl Commerce bank had really had started that excess out of credit card industry. And also they were one of the first banks to allow the use of their charter to create a prepaid credit card back before debit cards were a thing. And so now debit cards are a thing, prepaid credit cards are not a thing. And if you couldn't qualify for a credit credit card, you could qualify for a prepaid credit card, but you could always qualify for a debit card.
So that industry was changing. They were looking for this next industry. I was looking for warehouse lines and, and what came to be a really cool mortgage or a good, cool partnership and growing this mortgage department. But I would say was I scared? What were there things like I hear a lot and I'm able to help a lot of people sell their companies to bigger companies. And just late. You've seen a lot of that happen in the mortgage industry. Of course it was because there's a lot of unknown. What is it like to work for somebody again?
Uh, would they have the same values as I, as I would. And I will just say that over all of these years, since the end of 08, it's just, it's been a great marriage. And marriage has things where, you know, there's a struggle, there's a conflict. But I always believe those two things make it even a better relationship. And I feel like we've just grown over the years together.
[00:04:33] Speaker B: Chris, this sounds a lot like walking into that television show Shark Tank.
You know, you're pitching a deal, they're, they're listening to you and then the person is actually making the pitch. They know about their product. But then the sharks are saying, hey, you know what, what about this? What about this? Your revenue, your, your product distribution, so on and so forth. But then what everybody wants to see after the, the pitch is done after Mr. Wonderful, whoever says, hey, here's, here's your deal. This is what you're going to do. Let's go do it. And what we want to know is what is the first 90 days after they say, yes, we're going to do it?
[00:05:11] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, I mean, great story. I mean, the first 90 days is the, is the middle of the big hit of, of 09, and lenders are going out, there's meters all over.
We're losing investors.
It was like a war zone or this perfect video game. And I just hope we got enough lives in this deal to be able to get through all this little pieces. And, and so as we were making this, in a sense, transition, there was just one simple goal. And the board had an income goal and I had a market share goal. And together, you know, we worked towards that.
So my goal was that I wanted number one in the market share of the city. And how am I going to get that? At the time, Wells Fargo owned the market.
And what I quickly realized was, is that they were never bringing the youth up underneath, so they weren't training great originators underneath these monster nationally recognized originators. And we were. And so when they started to retire, that was like our opportunity to really go in and grab that market share. We didn't get it the first year, we didn't get it the second year, but we did get it in 2012.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: Market share, you grabbed and you grabbed it again. And then the next zip code and the next zip code and we'll talk about zip codes. At some point, you wanted to do more.
2016, you go back to that board. Did you have a better comfort level with them, or was it just as nervous asking for them to go into a whole new channel?
[00:06:44] Speaker C: That story, that story became. I was, I've. I'm a firm believer of being a producing branch manager. I see too many branch managers grow, quit in production and just want to be this manager. And number one, you're going to make less, and number two, you're going to lose your sauce. And so I'm always like, yes, there is a certain size where you've kind of got to give it up.
And.
But at this point in time, I'm, like, struggling. I'm doing 25, 25, 30 deals a month, and I, and I want to continue to grow. 25 or 30 deals a month is fantastic. It's great. It's awesome. But I was like, what's next? What's next? And I came up with this idea to help banks across the country be Be good at mortgage. And really it was defined area of the Midwest. And I went back to the board and I'm like, hey, we're just as good as we are in South Dakota. And like some of you listening today, there are more people in your city than in our state.
So we have like 800,000 people in our state. And I'm like, I'm wanting to, I want a little bit of grow. I know banks could be better at originating. This would be a perfect opportunity for me to, to originate more loans and still run my branch and not affect market share and not step on the toes of these originators that are part of my branch. Which is, which is the thing like we don't have that many originators or realtors that are big huge producers. And so I come up with this idea to be able to enter into a, an agreement with these community banks, us being a community bank as well. And off we went. And before I know it, we're originating 100 loans a month through this program.
And that grew into the non dell space which then in 2020 Fannie called and they said they knew of a company that was getting out and they had some AES and they wanted to know if we thought about entering into the wholesale, full wholesale side. And that was our transition in. And then Covid hit.
Of course I had, I didn't have this huge book of MSRs that were rolling off because of the. In instant drop of interest rates. I didn't have some of the additional problems. I have a problem of scaling and trying to scale really fast and, and so even though I had challenges, I had different challenges. And off we went into the wholesale side. Still, still in the retail side in South Dakota and never still to this day. It's, it's. It's my passion. I love it. But wholesale has truly been probably our biggest growth.
[00:09:24] Speaker B: What's the one thing that you're looking at?
Because you're a producing branch manager, so used to be a mortgage broker, then you became a mortgage banker. And if you want to make it the way we do it as brokers, I mean we've heard that brokers are better before.
Give us one policy you wrote because you've been on the other side of the table. And did your underwriters react negatively or positively to it as a policy change because you've been on the other side. In, in.
You made that change in the company itself.
[00:09:53] Speaker C: Well, I stopped producing in 22, so it was just running wholesale and running retail.
I, I had to give it up. I Had a really, really good partner that we were originating on and he took over, which was a great sign. My kids are both in the business, so my son's on the retail side, my daughter's on the wholesale side. So I got them separated because they're both competitive.
But, you know, I mean, I. I'm not sure if I'm a hundred. I want to make sure I nail this question for you, Michael. But like, I. I think that what's hard for us and great for the consumer is, is that the. It puts an extreme amount of pressure to be really super competitive in the wholesale side, which in the end, the consumer dominate.
[00:10:36] Speaker B: Okay?
[00:10:36] Speaker C: On the retail side, you are just as good as whatever margin that retail company wants to set and you really, truly have no other options.
And on the wholesale side or the broker side, you have lots of different options. And lenders today really, truly compete.
Back when I was a broker in the early 2000s through eight, like you kind of worried a little. You're like, is this baby going to close? Am I going to look good? Like there was. That's why I liked warehouse lines, because I can control that closing.
But today it's so highly competitive, everybody's got to be at their game. And like some of my biggest competitors that are these big, huge monster guys, I mean, they've made us all better because they just got so good. And yes, technology is part of it, but the humanization of being able to communicate and being able to deliver for that customer every single time is literally changed overnight in the last 10 years. It is way different than it was, which I think gives the broker that advantage.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: Your origin story stuck out to me. Mine some somewhat similar, not completely, but just enough to stick out. My father after seeing me be a broker for three years, you know, you eat what you kill.
Was saying, you know, maybe you should look at it in a different career path. And I had to kind of stick with it. And I think the non ability to get residual income as a loan officer therefore requires a control, as you would call, but a control of perseverance. At some point you are going to need perseverance to get back to that ebb and flow.
You certainly have a story of perseverance from where you were in insurance and then getting into starting from scratch. Can you talk about that and maybe like one belief from that early day that you were able to prove wrong?
[00:12:35] Speaker C: Well, my dad did tell me not to do mortgage, by the way.
So it was, that was a very interesting conversation. I had just went broke doing insurance and I love telling that story because it reminds me of that moment, that moment of telling my wife that we're broke. The moment that she never knew. The moment the tear went down the side of her cheek. The moment that I sold everything and started all over. It was those moments that you never forget. That I feel like is your drive throughout of building a company. But you. It was also my moments to realize that don't live with outside your means. Don't, don't forget to keep the goal in front of you. And, and I think so many originators today or even business people, they look at the wrong thing which is the finish line. And when you look at the finish line or the close loans, like I'm closing 10 loans a month, I'm closing 10 this month, I'm closing seven this month, I'm closing four this month, I'm closing 30 this month.
Boom, you already screwed it up because you stopped paying attention to activity. Like if you don't want to get stuck, stay in activity. And that's why I never go around the room when I coach my LOS on Tuesdays. I never say how many loans you're closing. I measure their activity and so face to faces, break breads, phone calls, thank you. Cards, videos, leads, deals and apps. And I totally changed it. And many great companies have copied me now, which I want them to, I want you to copy me is that every night at 7:01 I I track this. Every AE and every LO. I track their apps and their locks. And the reason why I track their apps and locks is this. If you have a lot of apps and no locks, you're not converting. If you had a lot of locks and no apps, you're not getting new business. And so to me, no AE or LO needs to be left behind. And that was some of the lessons that I learned throughout that is, is that, hey, what, what, why are you doing this and what's your goal? And when I was in insurance, I had no goal. I couldn't answer why I was doing it and I lost focus and I failed.
And if I just would have got my focus on activity, I don't think I would have failed. But also think that that was the greatest blessing that I received was that failure so that I could go out and figure out a way to win again.
[00:14:54] Speaker A: So I, I agree too. Reminds me of the, the bat triangle, the behaviors, attitudes, techniques. But it's really that behavior that is your, that keeps you going. Or it actually reminds me of, you know, creating the mobile app in the mortgage space because we bootstrapped too long.
I had to remind the team to keep motivated. The famous quote, you know, you'll always remember the journey, not the destination. And they would say, boy, the destination sure would be, you know, that simple Nexus one billion sure sounded like a nice destination.
But you got to know where you're going and like we weren't there yet. So we got to enjoy that journey and then that friendships and those people and those experiences. Can you talk about either like the single hardest day, the single hardest conversation, or the most rewarding nostalgic look back you have from that early journey.
[00:15:45] Speaker C: There was never one big huge day or, or one huge, horrible, horrible day. There were bad days and there were good days. I still have them to that to this day. But I would say that after leaving Covid and having to do a small layoff was, was really hard for me.
I watched a young man leave and I shook his hand and my head, I remember to this day, my head went to the ground.
And in his final we always surveyor our employees when, when they leave because we feel like they're the most honest. And he said it really bothered me that Chris didn't look me in, in my eye and I didn't look him in his eye because it was so painful and yet I should have embraced that pain and I took responsibility of that. And that to me was a really, really, really hard moment.
Really hard moment.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: Yeah. We had cash. Not just a, a comment, Mike, then you can ask your question. But we had catch on the show.
He was unbelievable, Ash.
And he talked about that being his worst moment too. And how like how he was crying at night. Right. And how he still has them all ready to go in case they come back. And he's not sure if you know, any of them or half of them or all of them would come back, but they're on his mind all the time if they're able ever able to expand back. So it. That does keep coming up. That particular moment where you had to cut a little bit further than you would have liked it, when it went beyond merit and it just went to necessity. But those who did it are still around to hopefully, you know, have opportunities for others in the future.
[00:17:27] Speaker C: Chris.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: It sounds to me like starting with the 98 Russian bond crisis and then the dot com bubble in 2002 and then the 2009 blow up in real estate and then we have this seemingly almost impossible drop and then metic rise in interest rates. There's been several events in your lifetime that you've seen, but there's been and with these ups and downs, who has been your confidant or phone a friend moment that you just go to and say this is who I I need to talk to this person and either to feel better or to get better.
[00:18:06] Speaker C: Well, yeah, I mean I feel like every great golfer has a coach and every, every position or you know, originator, CEO, whatever your. Your title is. I'm not big title person but should have a coach and, and that coach, you know, you have a, you have two choices.
First of all, you got to figure out can I be coachable?
And the second thing is is that will I accept that mentorship and the mentorship means that you got to be vulnerable with the coach. Like so just hiring a coach didn't solve it for me.
Throughout having a coach, I had to figure out those two ingredients to get of a coach and there was sometimes where being vulnerable to be able to talk through those things.
So I use two coaches, I use a business coach and I use a therap therapist coach and I probably learned just as much business from my therapist coach as I do my, my actual business coach. But it's those things that I feel like keep me at bay.
I would have like if, if you said, Chris, what, what is a worst quality? I would say probably a little emotional. Like, you know, I can let my emotion make a decision and, and I guess Scott, if I could just take a second, I'm probably going to make the right decision. But if I would let. And every once in a while I have let emotion make that decision, it's going to be the wrong one.
I'm going to say something I'm going to regret.
I'm going to react too quickly and I'm naturally a fighter and so emotional and being a fighter sometimes is not the best quality. If you would just take a step back and go, oh wait, I get it. Nope, this is how we're going to handle that situation.
So I would think that in those scenarios a coach has been great. But here's another one.
If you don't know where you're going, it's hard to ever get anywhere.
And I feel like my coaches in my life keep me and push me to where are you going and why are you doing it and how are you going to get there? It would be weird if we said we're going to go on vacation and we just started driving. But if we were going to go somewhere and we were going to do a long trip, we'd probably put it in our phone as this map and it would tell us how long we get there. I wish business was that simple, where we could put it in our phone and they would say, you'll be there in 22 days.
But it isn't.
And, but you still got to keep that vision in front of you.
[00:20:34] Speaker B: It's interesting because we, we go through these moments and that, these moments that, that help define where we. We've come from also will help define where we're going to.
And often I've said, when your values are clear, your decisions are easy. Has there been a moment through all these travails and through coaching that you had a value system, but then that value system changed on one aspect that caused you to move forward in a positive way?
[00:21:02] Speaker C: Well, I'll start with the negative way. It turned out to be positive, but it was negative. Is I wanted to be number one in this coach group, and it was the only thing I focused on.
And so throughout those work in those community banks and all that, I got, I got to be number one. But it was the most miserable time of my life. It was the only thing that I thought about.
And I let other things that were way more important to me in life slip. My marriage, right, My marriage, my son's playing his first year in college football.
These, My daughter, like, I, I loved them. They, they were super important to me, but they got my second best.
And, and everything that I was doing was tracked to, I'm gonna get number one.
And I'm like, that was a lesson that taught me that you got, no matter what you're chasing, you still got to know what's number one. And, and, and you, you can't say this. And if you're saying it, I'll argue with you to the end of the end of the time. That is wrong. You can't say I'm doing it for them. No, you're not doing it for them. You're doing it for you.
[00:22:16] Speaker B: Right?
[00:22:17] Speaker C: You want to do something for them.
Get home on time, you want to do something on them. Do a date night, you want to do something on them. Have Sunday family dinners. You want to do something for them. You do family vacations. Like, they're not going to say at your funeral. My dad was the hardest working entrepreneur he ever. I ever knew. Like, is that what you want or do I want my dad love me? My dad never missed my events. My dad was always there to listen to. My dad helped coach me. Like, those are the things my.
I and my wife also just as important as having those things. And so I feel like, coaching really taught me that over the last four years.
[00:23:02] Speaker A: It's also important to. And you hear this a lot on the Instagram from the coaches, like when you're working, work and when you're at home, you're at home. On your family podcast, your daughter pointed that out about you, that you have an incredible ability to shut it off and be Mr. Family when you're home and when you're at work, work. And I think that's more important now than ever because of our smartphones. It. Our, our family members don't know if we're on espn, like, looking at the Sox Yankee score or we're really trying to book the meetings for the NBA annual coming up on LinkedIn. And I think if you just put down the phone, either way, they don't have to guess.
I'm no Chris Vincent, though. I, you know, I kind of am balancing it, but I am home all the time. But I, you know, I got false.
[00:23:48] Speaker C: I mean, I don't believe me. On vacation, I have went to the bathroom to make phone calls and hide in there for a minute. I, I have done the stuff. I, I am not perfect, but I try hard. And I will ask Shalis every once in a while. Mike, is it, Can I take this call that.
[00:24:06] Speaker A: Yeah, that's.
[00:24:07] Speaker C: And sometimes she says no.
And, but sometimes she says yes. And then I'll make it quick.
You know, I'll remember, remember, forget Shalice or Shelby. My daughter Shelby one time grabbed my cheeks and she said, dad, will you just pay attention to me for two minutes?
And, I mean, she said that to me years and years ago. I'll never forget it. So when she speaks to me, I still think, okay, I gotta pay attention. And so your kids teach you a lot of stuff. For sure.
[00:24:37] Speaker A: We appreciate the, the personal side of it too, Chris. And I think it's important for our listeners to understand as we try to help them on their journey. Really your journey. We're trying to take a loan officer, processor, underwriter from what they do today to better understand how they could be a future leader in their zip code and then realize that a lot of those zip code people are now Bill Dallas, Victor Shirelli, yourself. And there is a pathway and phone might not tell you how to get there. We're hoping our show does someday. So we can't do our show without some great sponsors. So we're gonna hear from those sponsors quickly. And on the other half, we're gonna jump into some more questions about what Chris is doing in wholesale, a little bit more about coaching, succession and family and winning the zip code.
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[00:27:14] Speaker A: Chris, when you went into wholesale you just had this simple one sentence and a mission statement of we're going to do it how we wanted it to be done when we were brokers.
Can you tell us a little bit more about how different brokers, maybe even IMBs or community banks can work with Windsor throughout the country?
[00:27:38] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean well I mean that statement came because of a, an account executive and a account manager and underwriter who truly at the in the, in the old days changed our life like taught us everything.
And it was that relationship with that it was Principal actually was the name of the company and Principal was like our go to and I and we were sitting around and we were strategizing on our play and, and what was our uniqueness?
How are we going to enter it in? And it was Troy that really said look I don't want to do it any other way than what principal did for us when we were a broker. And so then we started to really map out this piece of what did we love when we had that relationship and what would we change.
And, and that's really how, you know, the, the Windsor way in a sense got really truly created. I always say, look, we're the boutique shop that can basically handle any size that you are. And I feel like the humanization and the technology piece, the combined of both is. Is where Windsor really shines. They, they like our zoom help desks and our underwriters that are live that they can get and have that communication with. They like it that we're. There's not a lot of layers and if you needed to call me, call me. And that that thing there is. It's probably what I'm the most proud of the team is, is that they've really over the years they've kept that true.
[00:29:09] Speaker B: Chris related to this, but in getting into I've heard a lot about AI or brokers are better. What is an alternative to or the consumer to learn. But what's one misconception about brokers that that still gets under your skin about the industry and what story do you use whether in that experience to say, okay, you know what, this is what the misconception about brokers is. And this is actually what it's supposed to be.
[00:29:42] Speaker C: I think the, the thing that happened in the past was is that when there were more loans that came in, people that came from the retail market that went to broker then in the early teen years then got loaded with loans and didn't have the support and the team and the design and went back to retail.
And I think that that was something that the brokers and the investors and all of us really learned is, is that okay, how do we fix that part? And so the team design of a broker today is so much better than it was five, six, seven years ago. The, the, the, the quality of originators that have entered into this space. The, the entry into the space, the entry. The what the wholesale investors are truly providing to the originators today is just at a whole new level. And so I would say I can't build a team.
I can't scale as a broker. That myth is totally been busted. I feel like you can grow, you can build a big branch, you can have all the tools, the whistles and bells of any retail loan officer both side whether you're a broker or a retail. It requires the work and the infrastructure and the technologies to be able to do it but you can do it. And actually I think you can scale faster as a broker than as a retail loan officer simply because of movability.
[00:31:10] Speaker A: What do you think are the different ways you can grow as a broker? This is what I observe. You have companies just committed to how many loan officers.
Like that's their North Star metric and everything will fall under that.
Some obviously are units and how many units can we get? Maybe that's more money driven and then obviously market share and zip code would be another one like more hands on. We're going to be, you know how many homeowners that we know can we put in a home? How many different KPIs do you think are ways to grow as a broker?
[00:31:47] Speaker C: I mean first of all I would not make this overly complicated.
I feel like if you get the five to six loans a month you got to make your first hire.
You know we always teach this is the job description of the first hire and then you can grow.
I, I feel like if you were going to recruit and hire loan officers, I mean there's some, there's a lot of retail models out there. It's just a big, it's, it's stack on stack on stack on stack of additional basis points to get to the top and that's a lot of layer to the guy that gets to the bottom and gets a horrible rate sheet.
And so you know, at the broker level you don't see it at that angle. I mean sure there's overrides and things that happen with inside each branch and there should be because there's infrastructure cost and training and value being given. But I would never pay an override unless there wasn't a value. And there are a couple different theories. I mean some of my really, really big customers, for instance Trevor Barrett.
Trevor's done a really good job. He's probably up to 1900. Los Nex has done a great job. He a different theory but he's grown to almost, you know, in the high twos. I don't know Mike's exact number. Tom at at Edge has done a really good job and those are three examples of great companies with a flat fee model. A flat fee model that have grown now there, there are, there are companies that have grown through the basis point and I would call it more of a hybrid type model where they're providing lots of support for the originator. It's a basis point split and I've it that's probably my favorite model. But that model has done really, really well into our market and lots of different zip codes, umortgage being one.
And, and they continue to, you know, to be able to grow and, and be able to grab more market share in their different areas. They're doing really good in Utah and really good in Dallas and, and so big, big cities or small cities, the consumer is starting to really, truly understand that using a mortgage broker is a great way for me to get a mortgage.
And, and back in the old days we kind of had to explain ourselves.
So 2001 you're like explaining yourself what is a mortgage broker? And today I think the consumer kind of knows. So consumer knowledge has definitely been a thing. But whether you're wanting to grow a big huge branch or you just want an origination team or, or you just want to be a sole originator, I think the broker channel fits in all three of those areas to the extreme and all the way down to an originator being a sole owner.
If you didn't have originators underneath you, I don't know if you could, if you could outrun the cost of running the company. And so that would be something that, that I think you should really truly look at is, is that what's my cost to own my own if I'm a, if I'm a sole owner and just the sole originator versus paying a flat fee model or partnering up because of the support and the HR and handling the call reports and all the additional things that you got to handle other than just originating.
If you enjoy that stuff and you don't mind the additional cost. Okay. But that's for you if you'd like to offload that stuff. Maybe working for another company, another broker might be an option. But we're seeing a lot of success. We're seeing some kick butt originators really dominate in markets during Eric McGowan in Kansas City is just absolutely killing number one broker.
And the guy just has one moto. I'm, I'm not skipping green time.
And that's it. That's his business plan. Don't skip green time. And I come up with a new quote. I stole it from somebody. I wish I could give credit, but it's like it's okay to suck.
It's just not okay to skip. And I'm like that. That is what every, all of us need to hear all the time.
[00:35:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll.
I think Costco actually worked out really well for brokers because when I was a broker and this is probably like 08 to 013, like they would just nail you with the. We're direct lenders. Like, you know, if it's a broker, there's obviously an add on. And now Costco kind of taught you wholesale is actually cheaper than, you know, like, there's a reason we're obsessed with it. And I think the trust of.
Of that has, has gotten to where it is today. I.
So whether you're building a brokerage or in my role, I talk to about 16 CEOs of lenders a month. So I've been talking to a lot lately. A lot of IMBs.
I am surprised how many do not have succession plans. And then you, you don't have to be Colombo to put it together. When you see surprise mergers, all of a sudden you know how fast like Sierra Pacific moved.
But it seems like at least succession and family is. Is on your mind now, Chris, with Chalice and Shelby. I'm sorry, with you and Chalice kind of having Clay and Shelby at least be part of the Windsor culture, like, what's an honest conversation? Some of these leaders that haven't done this for 20 years can do so that maybe they can pass this business in the family rather than giving it to another mortgage company.
[00:37:16] Speaker C: Well, I mean, look, I don't know if Shelby and Clay are at the point to take it over. I mean, being honestly, if you say, chris, show me your succession plan, there are other people ahead and should be. But, you know, having your kids in part of your business. I grew up in a family business.
I. I worked for my dad. It was a blessing, but it was hard. And, and I think if my kids said, what is it like to work for dad? They would say it's hard. You know, I saw Shelby the other day and I seen she slipping standings and I yell out in front of everybody, you're slipping.
And she goes, I ain't slipping. I go, you're slipping.
And she goes, whatever, I will fix it. She's highly competitive. I know those right words. And then I know how to go back and love on her tonight and be able to say, now, you know, I know you got this.
And so it's two to one. It's one big huge feedback. And then it's two loves at the end. And you, you building and growing kids is, is more pressure on them than on us because they're looked at. They'll never be Chris or they'll never be Michael.
And.
And that weighs on them too.
And so.
Or they got this because of Chris or just the inner office stuff, you know, it's pretty good. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good. And both had had to earn the way. Shelby started off as a receptionist, Clay started off, and I made sure that both of them made the least amount of any employee in the bank for two years, and that was their pay the dues. And so when anyone would say they were handed something, I said, and I, I think you should go ask them about their beginning journeys because it wasn't very fun and having kids in, it's a blessing. I would say she's like, would we, can we stop talking about mortgage at supper table? And so she reminds us, we shut up and we get the family stuff, but you got to turn it on, turn it off with, with that. And that's, that's probably the hardest part.
[00:39:28] Speaker B: Well, you said at the beginning of, of the show, your dad actually encouraged you to not enter into the mortgage industry.
And for leaders who have succession plans written when they're, when their kids were really young, your dad probably had one written for you, but now you may have one written for your own kids. What is, what are three updates that you think that they ought to make in their own productivity, whether in wholesale or in retail, so that they can improve themselves to be the highest version of themselves?
[00:39:59] Speaker C: I think they got to learn how to lead.
I think they got to learn how to lead. They got to be better at leading individual teams and growing their own team. I mean, I think there's four pillars of leading. There's lead ourselves, which is the first step.
Then there's leading others, and then there's leading managers. And then the very hard, the very top of that little triangle is lead leaders. And that is very hard and to lead leaders. And so, you know, right now they're really good. They're leading themselves. And now they got to lead how to lead others, and they got to work their way up that little bit of that pyramid.
You know, I mean, we all know the great qualities of, of leaders. We got to be a great listener. We got to be transparent. We've got to be honest when we don't want to be honest.
We've got to be able to lead and motivate. We've got to be able to have that hard conversation when someone's maybe not stepping up and it's easy to ignore it.
And, and just like see or you see people in, in the mortgage find a role for someone because they can't fit the role. And I'm like, we don't find roles for someone. You, I mean, you either. We got to figure out if you can fit this role or not like just wanting to just, like, figure it out. Sometimes you end up with a worse employee and you're not doing them any favors. And so they, they've got to learn all these different things through their journey here.
And, you know, I've got, I've got some other managers that, especially the ones that direct report to me that are in that piece right now where they're leading managers. And, and so they're, they're, they're learning that part. And, and that, that's tough. You know, they've had to go with some, go to those layoffs with me. They, they've had to go through the compression of margin.
And by the way, look, I don't care who you are ever in mortgage or oil or any industry, everybody takes their turn.
And I've had some small business people call me lately and they're like, chris, sales are slipping. It's, it's messing with me. It's. I think I feel like it's tied to my identity.
How do I get through it? What do I do? And everybody, first of all, accept that. Everybody takes a turn now. Let's create a plan.
And, and that's what, probably what, you know, some of those things as, as the journey of. And I know my kids will get it, but it will just take time for them to get it.
[00:42:25] Speaker B: That in, in the, in the gospels, in the Bible, there's a, there's actually one of the things that Jesus says. He says, no one's a prophet in their own land, and especially when you're a dad.
Right. So when you tell, when you're giving advice to your kids and they don't seem to listen, is, is there someone that you call and say, hey, you know, I need, they need some help. You got to coach them a little bit. Help me out because, you know, this makes sense. I know this, this makes sense, but when it comes to me, it doesn't. Who do you follow up in the Windsor family to say to give them a little bit of coaching?
[00:42:58] Speaker C: Oh, I mean, I might call a coach. I might call a coach from the outside and say, hey, we will you call. I might call their manager and say, th. This is what we need to. Need to get after it. It's the power of the team and it. And the power of a team and all of us rowing in the right direction. In the end, we'll get there.
You know, we, we. We strategize every Monday. I meet all my managers on Monday in separate groups, and that way we're all on the Same page. I give them a theme of the week.
So by Tuesday, the whole company knows the theme of the week and so that we're all on that one direction and working in that direction.
But yeah, I mean, they're. They're a really good spot right now. Clay's really figured out how to originate Shelby's. Our top two to three AE in the company.
Got some really good accounts and some great relationships, but I think both of them, even though they're both different, they both understand that at the end of the day, it's all about the relationship, that. That's how you win in business today.
[00:44:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
Follow up on the relationship. And I mean, we're all just internally obsessed with the. Or at least Mike and I, like, with the mortgage industry. I. I already go to, like, Kate Decay is somebody that took over her father's business and was constantly judged as.
That's at least in the podcast. And I ran into her in Boston, like, how she had to overcome just assumptions that were not true on how hard versus how easy it was to. To get there and the fact that she actually bought it from her father. But knowing what I've watched from you, Chris, we weren't trying to get you into a business 101 of, like, passing a business down to your kids. I know you talk about, like, the movie Pay it Forward. One of the big quotes in there is it has to be something that really helps people, something they can't do by themselves, and I do it for them. Then they do it for three other people.
Forget the business. But, like, what do you think the business is a vessel for some of the core values that you hope your kids instill, your employees instill. What is that? Pay it Forward that you probably remind them of at least once a year in a. In a meeting.
[00:45:14] Speaker C: So, you know, one of our three ones are traditional values, which your words, your word results matter.
So at the end of the day, the results are the results. That's why we're data driven.
And. And lastly, and probably the most fun that I really love is be unique.
And what I mean by be unique is. Is be okay with being you.
And it's the most likable trait you could ever give is just be okay being you. Clay's way different than Shelby and. And. And vice versa. And be okay to be you. Don't ever try to be someone else. Don't try to be me.
In fact, you're going to be way better than me.
But just be unique in this industry.
Being unique, standing out, being real.
Your Word matters. And then keeping the results in front of you. And don't ignore it. Like, look, I don't like the scale. And the reason I don't like the scale is because the thing never lies and I want it to lie to me every once in a while, but it don't.
And that's what numbers do, right? Numbers don't lie. So stay in it. Stay in in your activity week after week. It's a grind.
This mortgage business is, is, is a grind. And you either fall in love with the grind or you don't. But if you don't fall in love with the grind, you're not going to love the results.
[00:46:40] Speaker B: Chris, one of the things that you, you probably value and are proud of is that you haven't lost a retail market share in South Dakota for what are three non negotiables you protected when it was really tempting to chase the shiny objects of whether it was marketing or sales tactics or whatever in order for you to maintain that market share.
[00:47:03] Speaker C: Well, number one, coach your, coach your los. So coaching your LOS is a lot of pressure because you got to stay ahead and you've got to bring it every week. So I coach them every week. I coach A's on Mondays and LOS on Tuesdays. And so that means I've got to continue to be able to feed your brain. Feed my brain. To feed their brain. And so I made a dumb video the other day that I said, you should exercise these as much as these.
And. And I think that that that's probably really true. So number one is that, number two, consistency of keeping a team. You know, some of my originators been with me 15, 16 years.
And so my number one, she was a dairy farm underwriter. Don't be afraid to make originators. I hear so many companies go, we're hiring experienced loan officers. We don't want to work with these and teach them the business. I'm like, oh, man, you are missing out because you could make great originators. I counted out of all my originators, by the way, I have a market share with only 16 Los and, and I believe in originators making a phenomenal, very high income. And only three came with experience.
And so make your team.
And lastly, hold them accountable to the numbers. It took a year in 14 to get them convinced that this is the right way. It took me a year. And do you know, Michael, the number one reason why owners or branch managers won't hold their loan officers accountable, because they're afraid they'll lose them. And yet it's the number one reason why they'll leave.
And I, we have playbooks here. We invite you in. You get to watch me coach my los, you get to hear me go over their stats, you get to me to give them feedback on their stats because that's what coaching should be.
It, it's not always rah rah.
It has to be some rah rah, but it also has to be based into the numbers and then what are you going to do to fix it for the next week? And the number one thing, they're like, that's what I need. I had originated here the other day and he said if I can't get accountability at the company that I'm at, I'm going to leave.
And I was like, that is music to my ears, my friend.
I need accountability and so do they.
And I think to be a great leader, you have to be willing to be led.
And, and so if you're leading, who is your mentor? Who is the person leading you in your role? And if you're missing it, go get it.
[00:49:45] Speaker A: As we come to an end here, my final question is as I, you know, obviously on the front end of disruption, try and guess behaviors. You have a lot of things going on in the news right now in our industry. An echo chamber on linked of the servicers are becoming unreal at grabbing refinance, which I actually do believe.
And then you have the whole Zillow red fin. You know, people are going there for purchase.
Used to be realtors refer to loan officers, now loan officers. If you're able to grab your own lead. I think it's, it's kind of inverted. It used to be 63%. Realtors give it to or 67. Now it's 43 or 47.
Actually loan officers are driving what, what's your, I'm guessing you might just say activity. But what is the inspiration for a loan officer to be able to combat all of this digital noise, this, this digital superpowers coming into their zip code and be able to, to prosper.
[00:50:54] Speaker C: Well, I mean to break it apart really, truly, you've got to be able to come up with a lead goal.
The number one miss thing that's not getting worked by loan officers today is their database. I've changed the word for everyone around me and we call it your portfolio.
What most people don't realize is, is a thousand person databases worth $350,000 a year in income if you do it right. There are originators across the country just winning in their portfolio alone. And so like look, you can pay attention to the news in Zillow. You can pay attention to this, you can pay attention to that. And I'm going to say, are you paying attention to the people that already know you, like you, and trust you? And so many originators today, they don't call their database because they don't think they need or want them to connect. And that's everything that they do want. And so what services and technologies are you using? 1. Are you using, like, a home bar? Are you using something to be able to connect with? Are you using.
Are you using this?
And I'll leave you with this story. Is. Is that. One of my great originators named Kyle made him. He came from Wells in. In. In a retention department, converted him to the secondary market. He'd been with me about 12 years, and this guy's painting at my house, and he says, hey, I got my mortgage with you. And I said, you did? I go, who was your originator? He goes, kyle.
And I go, oh, my gosh, Kyle is amazing. He goes, you know what? He'll be calling me this month.
I go, what do you mean he'll be calling you this? But he always calls me in October, and we go through all of my finances. We go through what my house is worth. We. We kind of like go through it all, and then we talk about what my next strategies are. And I always look forward to that call.
So I tell you that in encouragement back. You got to call your portfolio. You're missing out. Who cares about the other noise, realtor relationships, VIPs, whales.
And your portfolio, you'll do more loans than you've ever dreamed if you just pay attention to that.
[00:52:56] Speaker A: Mike, any final questions for Chris?
[00:52:59] Speaker B: I. I got an Irish proverb I want to give to you before we close, because I. It really just resonates as we had us, as we were speaking, there are good ships and wood ships and ships that sail to sea. But the best ships are friendships, and may they always be. When I'm talking to you, Chris, and listening to everything that you're speaking, it's what you bring to the table as a leader is not just something that is shallow and sinks, but really something that can stand the test of time as you're building the business and as you're coaching them. So not really a question, but just a show of gratitude and thanks for what not only you've given to us in the leadership and in the questions, answers you've provided to us, but also in the examples that you've been able to provide in actual execution and for that is something really special. So we appreciate you coming on to our show, Chris, so that we can really glean this type of information and figure out also how to execute at the same time.
[00:54:01] Speaker C: Appreciate that, Michael.
[00:54:03] Speaker A: Yes. And as we promised the listeners, we try and bring you to life, the great leaders in the mortgage industry, especially if you're unable to go to conferences. I will tell you, at the EPM conference, when Chris was on stage with Kevin Perennial and he's called the database, the portfolio, everybody wrote it down. So I just saved everybody, or we just saved everybody $1500 having to fly there, get a hotel, figure out how you're going to get back. That's why our show promises you what you get out there right here on the audio wave. So thank you, Chris.
Appreciate you coming.
Tag, I was trying to think of.
[00:54:40] Speaker C: The name, but Tag, Eddie's got a great event. Yeah, yeah.
[00:54:44] Speaker A: And. And you were unbelievable there on stage. And thank you for joining us on this journey into the heart of mortgage innovation.
Remember, every mortgage has a story, and we're here to help you write yours. If you enjoyed today's insights, please subscribe, share with your network and connect with us on social media.
Until next time, keep pushing the boundaries and uncovering the stories that drive our industry forward.
