Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to a December edition of season four of the Mic up show, where every mortgage has a story. This is the ultimate hub where the hidden stories behind the mortgage industry come to life. My name is Michael Kelleher and happy holidays.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: My name is Michael Zhao.
[00:00:18] Speaker A: And in every episode, Michael and I dive deep into the entrepreneurial spirit, the strategic insights and the breakthrough innovations that built the world's greatest mortgage companies.
So whether you're advancing your career or scouting industry leaders like John we have today, or exploring opportunities in fintech and prop tech and wondering how mortgage or home ownership on the other side of the chasm is relevant, you're in the right place to find out. So get ready to unlock the story behind every mortgage. Today we have a special guest for me, ask John Murray, who I'll be calling John throughout today. And he and I have crossed paths. When I created the mobile app, I would find myself running into him at the NBA scene at Lenders 1 and other cooperatives in the 2014, 15, 16. Now, we've had other people on here that you could say same thing about, but very few were from Massachusetts, so very few were just a stone's throw or, you know, a couple miles or a train ride away.
And so anytime I would see John, we'd have sports. The, the local teams were doing pretty well during that time, so we got to know each other really well. I, you know, I would call him when I had a new idea. I had an idea at the time, you know, we were white labeling mobile apps and we knew we could really get to the next level if we just made a commercial app that loan officers could download that we didn't have to white label for the company. And we made this app called Loan Squatch, my favorite. And John loved it. I mean, all the buttons were like sasquatch footprints. So like loan info was a sasquatch footprint. And the lo. The app in the store was called loansquatch. We own loansquatch.com.
john, like, would, you know, he's an idea guy. He was like, you need bumper stickers. Like when I go up to being, you know, you see him. And so John, you, I mean, we're going to go through your story, but it, it's a, I think it's one of the backbone of this show, which is once you get great at sales and being a great loan officer in this industry, if you stay focused on that, the opportunities come to you and you get a chance to grow, but at the same time, you kind of all live through the same pattern. So we'll go through that. Some old technology, you know, new technology, time becoming old, winning awards and awards that aren't over anymore. John actually said it funny to me. He said, you know, that is my life story. I don't know how you got it all on GPT, but it. I don't want to be some obituary. I gotta refresh a little bit of it because it sounded so commemorative. Right. And, and hopefully you can hear me.
[00:03:10] Speaker C: Because I just lost you for one second, but you came back so you can hear me. Okay. Right?
[00:03:14] Speaker A: Yeah. So why don't you tell us before we all dive in with our, our questions, before we dive into how you, you know, in Michigan went into the mortgage industry. Can you just explain a little bit about just how you're feeling about where you are in the mortgage industry today and, and who you are and why you're energized, especially with the Synergy One team.
[00:03:35] Speaker C: Oh, I just, I, I've gotten re. Energized. It's funny how business is. The origination business is so the same, but so different than what it was even, you know, back in the 80s. It's crazy how, you know, in some of your questions, you, you came up with it. It's, it's. You don't. And it's funny because you don't know what technology you miss until you don't have it. And we had gone. We did a short stint. Draper and Kramer was at my old company, great company. I wanted to retire there. They ended up stopping the origination kind of system and selling off the company. So we went to a smaller bank that wouldn't allow, wouldn't allow even chat gbt. Wow. I mean, we couldn't have Gmail.
We had no hybrid E closings. We had no portal to help the clients log into their, their applications and give us, you know, their, their documents. So everything was done by, like, somehow I had to figure out how faxes worked and it was unbelievable how to. So I had to go from a system that was so easy with technology to one that we didn't have for the last year. So we're so happy to get back to Synergy One. I mean, they're like, they're exactly our old company on steroids. Not, not the bank company, but, but the, the, the Drapery Print Grammar Mortgage company. It's amazing that technology and the, the ease that my clients are so happy to be back to have this, and I'm ready for it to get busy again because it's just so many, so many new Toys to play with. I'm psyched. It's reinvigorated me.
[00:04:49] Speaker A: I wanted to start. It's the holiday season here. I'm going to go over my cousins for Christmas Eve and he's going to pull out a CD that I burnt, you know, with my mortgage information on back in 2012. And I thought I was creative, but then I read, you know, doing the research, you have a 2004 holiday CD on a branded a holiday journey volume two with S. John Murray from Mortgage Financial.
So can you just give us a glimpse into the era of sending physical gifts and handwritten notes and music to clients?
[00:05:25] Speaker C: I mean, I thought having a CD was so ahead of the curve. Then know I was going to go with a cassette, but I figured no CDs will never go to go away. But so I. We would send out these Christmas CDs and it was awesome. I mean my clients. Except that it started getting in 2004. I mean it was a. 2003 was huge as far as production goes. So it got expensive because I had like a thousand clients that I was sending these CDs to and I'm not the most organized person as far as getting Christmas cards and things out. That's putting it mildly. So it may be that was the one thing I had to get ready and get ahead of the curve to do and, and get those out to all my clients because if I didn't, I would hear from them. I got a lot of crap from my buddies, though, that we were like, oh, thanks for sending me your Christmas Holiday Journey, you know, and all that. But it was the best marketing piece. It had my, my picture on it. And they, they, you know, and then again, I couldn't send it late because you're not going to listen to I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas in January. So it had to go out and get to their house. But unbelievable. Like they just waited for this thing. And I had to keep on remembering which ones I didn't send. I did it for like six years. Those. There's a whole group. I could have you. I met you too late. You would have had. You would have been on my list. I was gonna have my son bring it in. I wish I did because I still have them. They got. I have to dig out the CD player though, so I can play it.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: Wow, John, you. Let's go back in time back into the 80s and, and, and start with your journey, I think. Or even. Maybe even earlier than that. I'm not sure. But if we can, we can if we can trace you back into your days into and. And, and really talk about your start in sales, would you be on telling how. Tell us your story of how you got into sales and what you did in order to start your hustle or your journey of the hustle.
[00:07:07] Speaker C: It's funny because I, you know, through college I learned that the easiest way to make money was waiting on tables. And so I got. I, it gets. Overall, I think all the best originals probably start out as waiters or waitresses or in bartenders because you get to learn to talk to clients and not be nervous about it. And so because I, I am not.
I'm not great with public speaking or any of that type of stuff. I just never was.
That was not what I, I wanted to do, but I didn't mind talking one on one with any of my clients. And so when we're at Michigan, there wasn't a lot of opportunity in, in 85 when I graduated and getting into 86 with.
For any type of a, a, you know, a job. So the only one that came out there was American Frozen Foods from Woburn, Mass. And I knew why I didn't want to stay in Michigan. I mean, I don't know if you've been out there for any length of time, but it's flat. There's no ocean, there's no skiing or. There is, but it's actually a mountain that used to be a, A dump that they put. They put snow on. So that's, that's your, that's your skiing out there. So I was coming home and, and so I got the sales. You. You. I. Unbelievable. Training for American Frozen Foods to learn how you flash freeze meat so they don't, you know, you don't break the blood vessels and the type of, you know, the type of cuts and, and boy, I could. I'd sit down with a family and I, I, you know, you can get this with fillets and, you know, all the different London broil cuts and the, the different, different hamburgers, and we'll even throw in a couple of turkeys, which I hate asking for referrals because they had to give me like 10 referrals. And I get a turkey. They get a free turkey. I just, that's. So that part of me is tough. I have a still time, a tough time asking for referrals from my clients because I'm afraid I'm, I'm actually like the American Frozen Foods guy. Just saying, I'll give you a free turkey, but. But then I would go through the Whole thing like, wow, what does this cost? I'm like, what's, it's $70, you know, a week. But that includes the freezer. And they'd be like, oh my God, that includes the freezer. So I had like the, I would sell these things like crazy, but we wouldn't get paid until their credit checked out. So I, I had like a 90% sales rate but only about 50% of it got delivered because they, half the clients couldn't afford the, the, the actual $70 a month when they ran their credit.
[00:09:13] Speaker B: So that's almost better. That's almost better than a mortgage ratio now actually.
[00:09:16] Speaker C: Oh, it was crazy. But you know, I, I, I did not want to. And the funny thing is they told me how much money you would make and at the time they said you could make up to like 35, 000. And I made the Mr. Meat probably list three out of like the six months I was there starting and I was training people. I'm like, look at if I Mr. Meat and I'm only making maybe a thousand dollars a month because of all the, the different, you know, my, that was another one that, that got me. But, but anyway, the, the, I realized this wasn't going to be a career I wanted to stay in. And it had turned out to be a little bit.
The meats were unbelievably expensive. I started doing the math out and they're back. Then it was like 30 bucks a pound. I'm like, wow, this is not something I feel comfortable like, you know, I, I finally got to the point was one of my good friends, wife's family and the guy they were older, they're like, oh, we trust you. We're going to buy from like no, I can't do it. You can't buy this stuff. It's way too expensive. So that's when I went to, to interview with, with Farragut Mortgage and Origination and the rest is kind of history. It was crazy.
[00:10:18] Speaker B: Can you tell about that first year of transitioning into mortgages and then going from brand, brand new? Back then you didn't need an ML license. It was if they hire you, you became an originator. So what was, what was the first week? The first month? The first half.
The first half month and then all of a sudden going from brand brand new to all of a sudden running an entire branch in a year?
[00:10:43] Speaker C: Well that, that was the crazy part was, you know, I didn't even know how to spell mortgage. I still don't think I have a tough time Spelling mortgage right now. But I had no clue to get into it, so. But I, I, we. I was extremely lucky. I worked for a company called Farragut Mortgage. And at the time when I started, they were the first. The day I started, basically, I think it was that week we were the first company in the country to break 10%.
And you would have thought we're giving money away. So I was training with my loan officer friend who became my manager, who then became a stockbroker afterwards. But he did 14 million the first month in February of 86.
And I think it's 93. 7.
Can you imagine how many loans that is? All by hand, all by those little. I think, I don't know if you. But they were at the. We had the white, the pink and the, the yellow sheets that you had to sign for your applications. It was crazy.
Yeah, they pressed three. I had to press through it and I always forgot the wrong. Oh my God. I took the pink one out, the yellow and it was always like crazy. But so I. My first two weeks, I did 6 million in loans. I couldn't. I thought, this is insane. And I was getting 55 basis points. So I was making. I made more in two weeks than I would have made what they lied to me about making at American Frozen Foods, which is just. I thought, this is never going to end. This is the best thing in the world. My family thought I was working for like drug dealers. Like, you can't make that kind of money. And then I did learn quickly that a lock loan's a closed loan because then Gaddafi in April of 86 or 80. Yeah, it was 86. He bombed the palace and killed like his daughter is Duga. And that the. And two of his sons gonna. And. And oil spike like crazy. And so we had rates go from, you know, 9.99 back up to 11 and a half really fast.
So. But, but it was a. I was kind of happy that we were all happy that happened because none of us knew what we were really doing. And it took like four months to close those loans. But they, they did, they did eventually all close.
[00:12:42] Speaker B: So during that time period when rates went from nine to 11 and a half back in the 80s, technology is super antiquated compared to today. And there's no Internet back then, so you don't email people. You door to door. You have a ton of experience door to door. And then. And then I want to take it back to today where we have more accessibility of communication, more accessibility in reaching out to people either in conferences you have either zoom calls or Internet phone calls, FaceTime. And it seems like today it would be. It could be easier because you don't have to press hard.
Go get the actual physical loan application. Right. But yet the interest rates went up and everyone's like, I'm only doing like one to four loans. But here you are in a 9% interest rate environment, going up to 11 and still potentially going up to $10 million a month. How does someone in a mindset capacity go in leader, not only in origination and also in leadership. Take it to where you just grind it and grit it and just. And just hustle through it.
[00:13:46] Speaker C: Well, it's just, it's funny. I mean, I just learned always to. The harder you work, the more loans you could do and just keep on working hard and getting back. And I, it is now, I think it's so much easier. I mean, everybody's complaining about it and I don't sound like the guy. Bar my day, I used to walk back and forth in the, in the snow. But I will show you one thing I wanted to bring. This is what got me through it in the beginning. This bad boy. I was so ahead of the curve with my technology.
[00:14:11] Speaker A: Huh.
[00:14:12] Speaker C: This, this.
That was how my clients got in touch with me. Of course, I had to make sure I was next to my car because you didn't have that. You didn't. You couldn't plug in your phone. But that's what we had. And you talk about, you talk about, you think you got it tough. We. We used to get the credit reports and if, if they ever went off the little rail. I don't know if you have. You talked to people that had that, but they. The credit reports that come out on this little wheel thing, and it would take a couple days to get them. So you never knew if your client qualified for a while. But if it ever came off that little digits, it would, it would just make a big mess. It wouldn't even be a printout. So we had a. It was insane. And we had to like hand write everything. Everything was. So we had to hand deliver and hand sign everything there was. You couldn't go in the mail with it. So finally we got to like 93. We were doing the same kind of volume again, you know, 93. I've gone through a whole bunch of these cycles. But to now to be able to sit there on your phone, be on a ski lift, say, oh, your closing documents are there for your client. You hit a little button and sign it. It's just so simple. And my clients don't have to try to track me down on that. They actually can reach me. And not because I never gave out my cell number because it was so expensive to call on that thing. It was a. I know it was a buck a minute. So I mean I couldn't.
So. So it got crazy. But to answer your question now I think we have all the technology in the world but it also. We also have all the comp. We have a lot more competition. You know, you've got all the servicers that want to. They've gotten really smart and really good at retaining their servicing. And so that's. That's a big challenge for all of us, I think.
[00:15:42] Speaker A: Yeah. I think competition is definitely the most overlooked part of it. The attention, the eyeballs. When I hear stories, I also find it very interesting.
The 90s are like the lost time. So like we have a lot of guests on here that talk about their venture in the 80s. They get to some point in the early 90s and then you don't hear from, you know, you don't hear from them very often. I was watching the Kevin Costner Beautiful Day of. Of Christmas about if the birth of Christ and he. And he talks about, you know, Jesus's time in Egypt sort of the same. You don't really hear much. I think that's. Or maybe no maybe when he went to Nazareth. But like him grown. You don't. You don't hear much about that. I feel like that's a lot for the 90s because. And I just want to. I'm doing a segue to point out. I mean you were an advisor for Sue Woodward's like I. Yeah.
[00:16:37] Speaker C: The mortgage. The mortgage Mor Guide.
[00:16:40] Speaker A: You were doing trainings National Barb. But like Barry A.B. todd Duncan Scotsman's Guide. These all ring and maybe they were before but to me these all stories I know about him like 2004 originator magazine mom.
[00:16:54] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:16:55] Speaker A: So.
So like what. What goes on from 93. Oh it's. And so you're a top originator. We can get in later. How family sort of determined your current route versus getting the big team and trying to Scotsman's guided every year. Right. But 93 to 2004. Let's say the Internet comes around like now that Mike said it was that the difference like it used to be a lot more door to door and nobody wanted to do door to door. So if you actually worked hard and were comfortable less competition. People didn't mind sending emails and.
And building websites. So that's why all of a sudden it got harder or like, what, what, what?
[00:17:36] Speaker C: Oh, it's funny because the email just kind of started in like 92, 93. So we really didn't have.
But it was busy then too because we had another refi. Boom. It seems to happen every five years or so. We're overdue. We're gonna have a big one again. And so, but it was 93, you know, we went through 86, 87 and then 92, 93 and then, you know, again we, we had like 98 and then 2000 started one and then it got huge. 2003 was probably one of the biggest years we had. But by then we were able to finally use computers and laptops and, and, and actually take the loan application. We would still, I would do it over the phone. I was still handwriting loan applications right up until, you know, until Encompass probably became, you know, a web based type of thing. We could do it online. But I, I would still hand write all my applications right up until probably 2012, maybe even, maybe even longer than that. So I was always still doing the old school. And I learned that. I remember the, the Sandler Sales Institute. I, I don't remember that guy.
Yeah, that was the first training I got and I, I'll never forget. Like he said, you know, you've gotta, you talked about how you. Now if you're, you're sitting in a doctor's office and you're like, oh, this is, I got things to do. I can't believe I'm, you know, sitting here. This is, you're sitting in your, the doctor comes in and you'd be like, come on, how long is this going to take? Then he puts up the chart, he's like, oof. You're like, wait a minute now, could I die? You know, so you said, what you want to do is you don't want to have your clients think they're going to die, but you've got to get them a little worried about stuff and then you've got to be the aspirin, like you'll do it. So I guess, you know, what was their biggest pain point and it was always to me was closing costs. People hate closing costs. Like, why not to pay all these closing costs? So I learned early on I'm just going to pay for all their closing costs. And I've done the no point of closing. And so that to me made my life really easy. And they would just call up and we just do it every time the rate would drop a half a point.
[00:19:22] Speaker B: For context, John, if you now the no cost loan and, or the no point, no fee or the reduction of cost is almost commonplace. But if we, if we, if we can go back in time again, let's talk about, for example, like we have Mortgage Coach Shay. We have a lot of different options that we can actually create options for.
But if you go back before even Mortgage Coach, you had to be able to say, okay, well, you know, before I was like, okay, this is your loan. And if you were doing like a loan with the HSC or beneficials, like 4 points, 10 points, right? And so what, what, what did you do as a part of the sale in order for you to, to create the, the different types of, of options? And, and what, what, what was your mindset in creating that for your client base?
[00:20:08] Speaker C: Well, I mean, the beginning in 86, there was only like the two points and they went to 0.87. I'm like, all right. And then I did the math on this and then 91, 92 hit. And you know, I probably were, I was averaging maybe 30, 40 million a month. Then I realized if I didn't charge them closing and I stopped charging points. But then I started actually paying for the closing costs in the 90s because then my $30 million clients would then turn and just refinance again. Now it's 60 million. Then it'd be 120 million.
And they'd tell all their friends about that. I didn't pay any closing costs. So I worked a lot. I just work with basically financial planners and accountants. And I would get in with Fidelity and they would, they would tell their clients about doing the no point, no closing and Ameripride the same. And then I would just sit there and go into an office and just write loan after loan after loan. And then they would tell all their friends about it and their clients. And it just, I was doing this without doing a lot of real estate business because it was when I got into the business, there's a lot of older bankers that were, you know, they'd make fun of me, oh, you don't want to go with me? You know, he doesn't even show up at the office kind of thing. And I just realized that working with financial planners, it was a lot easier. So I'm kind of a dinosaur that way too. I'm not huge on, on. I have really good friends that are real estate agents and I work with them. But that's not where my main business hip has ever originated from. It's from my clients and their and their kids and their referrals.
[00:21:23] Speaker A: As far as you said, all the good years, like the refinance rates come back, there's obviously crisis, too.
I don't know this one, if this one counts as one or it's just really bad times. But what makes a crisis harder? As an originator for you or, you know, maybe a leader, like a branch manager or maybe even an owner. What do you. Which crisis do you think really stuck out as the one you'd never want to see again?
[00:21:51] Speaker C: Well, the one that I still remember my financial planner calling me, and he's like, john, did you hear that Fannie Mae just went bankrupt? And it was like, July of 2008. I'm like, no. And I was driving to Storyland with my kids. No to Chris, to Santa's Village. And then you get to that certain point where there's no cell coverage when you're getting like, wildcat. And I'm like, other. My kids are like, dad. I'm like, this could be really bad. You know, we just, you know, Fannie Mae just went bankrupt. Like, how does that happen? And so that one was a little tough to worry about. But then, you know, that's. I think that's when the rates really. The Fed started stepping in and doing quantitative easing, and they did that in 2009, then 2010, where they would come in and start using, you know, kind of monetary policy to run to help our rates. And sometimes they'd always stay too long, but, you know, it. Or too early. And this time they've stayed. I think they stayed too long. I think they're just afraid of.
This one is probably the most painful, to be honest. That was a short pain, but it got really busy again right after that.
I think this one's probably the longest period that I've seen where it's a different world where. And they always say it's not different, but this time is different, where you don't have a lot of inventory. And especially on the east coast, you know, there's not a lot there. Home prices have gotten a little bit out of hand, though. They always seem to be expensive.
And I. I just think that it.
We need to see rates come down a little bit. But I think they're just hesitant because of what happened, you know, after 2002, 2003, when the market just. The rates went up. The, you know, the inflation got to 9%. But I really think we're going to see rates really start to improve, which will also then cause more people to buy homes. And that Old vicious cycle again. Yeah.
[00:23:32] Speaker B: How do you keep people through ebbs and flows? Right? You have a refi boom. All of a sudden the. All of our clients and borrowers are like, I want things done yesterday. Or when rates go up, everyone's freaking out, going, I don't know, I don't know. But I mean money's not emotional, people are. So how do you keep people calm through these ebbs and flows so that you can keep your origination business constant?
[00:23:55] Speaker C: Well, I think I joked about an 86, but we had. I think it was the first person that ever wrote 100 million was this guy Fran Lord from Northeastern Mortgage. I don't even know if he's still doing mortgages, but they said, what you want? Piece of advice? And he said, a locked loan is a closed loan. And so I'm like, wow, that does make sense. Because it's always the loans you don't lock that are the ones that you just have to worry about.
But so when you do a no point, no closing cost loan, even with a purchase, and I would do it for purchase refiis, all my clients get that option. So if the rates are coming, I'm like, this is exactly why we did this type of a program, so that when the rates come back down in six months or eight months, we can just simply refinance you. And you didn't pay me 678000. Closing costs are getting even more expensive now than ever with credit reports and everything else. So I'm like, you're not paying this upfront fee that you're never going to see the difference of it. It's, you know, it's usually a, anywhere from 36. I'll be right. It takes at least 36 to 54 months to pay back your closing costs. And I'm, I've got three years to be right with my clients. I'm going to be right. It's. It's just a matter of time. So that's how I keep them. I say, you know what? Rates go up. I'm like, this is why we locked you in. Rates go down. I. This is exactly why we did the no point of closing. So it's a. It to me, it's a, it's a perfect vehicle for my clients.
[00:25:14] Speaker A: You can't lose either way. You win. And you always get a Christmas cd.
[00:25:18] Speaker C: Like, and who, who knew I'd start looking like Santa? So, you know, it's like, yeah, like.
[00:25:26] Speaker A: Somebody fell on your roof and you had to sign the clause. Okay, on that note, Great episode. We're halfway through. We're gonna hear we could couldn't be possible without some of our sponsors. And these technologies are ones that we get behind here. They're certainly ones that large lenders are using to show and John said the perfect story early on.
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[00:28:12] Speaker A: All right, we're back.
You know I Don't want to run out of time here, John. I want to.
So actually I will say that. So you, you're back here. You're in a world where Beverly Tewksberry do you think your success was a product of a vibrant housing market? You know, it's, it's always seems to be steady because it's not much land to build on as hospitals and, and college universities and ocean.
Do you think it was because of your ability to train and understand sales from your Mr. Meat background, your Sandler background, or do you think it was some other just. I mean it sounds like your ability to work with maybe financial planners find a unique referral plan.
What is the mix there? How much of it is geography, how much of it's rate and how much of it is personality?
[00:29:08] Speaker C: I think it's all of the above. I don't know about the personality part as far as just working hard and actually taking care of my clients. I mean I would never do something that I didn't feel was right for my clients. The biggest part of that was I think in 2008 when the market collapsed, we would not do a stated income loan where a client would have to state an income on an application and sign it. We just would not allow it. And I lost loan offices over it. But it's, it was just, it didn't make sense to me. And so, you know, that part of it I think it's just we just were always an ethical that always did the right thing for our clients. We never did anything that would hurt our client. I mean of course there's those clients that probably don't deserve the rate lock to be extended or whatever. But I would still, I'd rather not make a commission on that loan and know that I'm going to help them or someday help their kids or whatever it might be.
Even though I might not be the, you know, might not be my fault why they didn't close on time. I never would put that on my client. So you know, it's just that kind of thing that we always do the right thing for your client no matter what. I think that's what the biggest success thing is. And I wasn't. I can't be the lowest rate. We, none of us can be. But I, I'm not going to be wrong long enough that they'll even know because I'll get them, you know, the better rate when the rates come down and it won't cost them anything. So I, I'm not up against the, you know, the, I Hate to put it like Rocket. They have a great program, but their, their closing costs are insane. I mean, you're looking at 15,000 in fees. I'm like, oh my God. Like, who would, who could, how could you do that to a client knowing that these rates are going to come down? They're like, well, how do you know they're going to come down? I'm like, well, you know, history is not going to repeat itself, but it'll rhyme. I mean, these rates always come down in a four to five year cycle that you'll never recoup the closing costs you paid. So that, that's just doing the right thing. And I think working with financial planners and accountants, people that their clients, you know, have skin in the game, have, you know, know the, the power of money. That's what I just love the velocity of money and how to use the rule of 72 and building wealth for my clients. That was my biggest thing. I was always, I was always about, you know, they're always like, how are we going to afford this home? And I'm like, you know, it's like, it's like when you had your first kid, you know, you didn't think you'd be able to have the kid and everything is fine when you buy that first house. I've done so many of my clients loans that I'll do their loan again as a refinance a year later and they're going to have just as much money in the savings as they had before. They haven't adjusted their spending well, they, they did, but they didn't realize it because now you've got this giant kid and you don't realize, you don't go out as much, but you don't notice it. You spend what you make no matter how much money you make. I think all of us that are regenerators know that we make seven figures and we don't have any more at the end of the year than when we made these type of years. Sometimes I have less from those big years.
So it's, it's all about, you know, building wealth with real estate and just being at the, working with the right clients and doing the right thing. I think that's, that's the, what I've done for years. I don't know what else to do.
[00:32:05] Speaker E: Did you ever.
[00:32:05] Speaker B: There was a time like when, when I was originating retail originations. My, my favorite adjustable rate lender was actually Chevy Chase because they offered like 1.0 margins versus, versus originators who would go and earn as Much as they could off like 5, 6, 7 margins. And those are times. And that's the time where the originator gets a chance to really show their education in the mortgage industry. But what, what do you think now about adjustable rate mortgages for those who are like, well, I'm not sure rates are going to take off. I'm not really sure what's going on. Was there ever a time you, you thought there's just too much product, it's just not worth it?
[00:32:42] Speaker C: Well, I just remember somebody from World bank showed me the option ARM thing and he came out with a brochure. It was more pages than my frozen meat thing was. I'm like, if I, I can't understand this, there's no way my clients can understand how this option ARM works with a different, like you talked about with the 3.0 margin or the 1. And, and funny thing is those probably ended up being the cheapest mortgages when the market collapsed and the rates, you know, went to zero. But by then everybody else, the problem was that these people had no money to put down and they had no income.
[00:33:10] Speaker B: So they.
[00:33:11] Speaker C: Doesn't matter what you say if you, it doesn't matter if the payment was zero. They couldn't afford it. They, they couldn't afford it the day they, they got the mortgage. Which to me was a problem. But as far as a regular longer term adjustable, I love them. It kills me that they kind of went away when Covid hit. I mean that was kind of a casualty of cold Covid. I was always putting my clients into a 7 or a 10 year arm and then when the 30 year fixed would line up, I would just put them into a 30 year fixed. I have no problem with that as long as you can pay the closing costs with it. That the one issue I have with a lot of the arms is they don't allow above par pricing to be able to cover their closing costs. So to me, yes, you're, you're getting this to get out of it, yet you're paying me closing costs. So I think you'd be better off with it. You know, and they're pretty close to the fixed rate right now. So if you're gonna save a half a point but have to pay me closing costs, there's still that 30 month break even that I think I'm better off charging them a little bit higher rate without the closing costs and give them a credit that, that's my thought on that. But I can't wait until they become more mainstream again. They just, it was my favorite product was this was the seven and ten year arms. I really believe in it because I don't think you're going to be in a loan over seven to ten years.
[00:34:16] Speaker A: This episode will resonate a lot with loan officers because it's something they really lean into. Right. I, I, I always say this but every, there's many loan officers, myself included that wanted to be called some sort of financial planner type. It was an insecurity of the loan officer name. You know, post financial crisis. Right. I'm a financial advisor. Right. Like put that in my title Bachelor.
[00:34:41] Speaker C: Show and everything else at the time, you know.
[00:34:43] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. If you're a bachelor, not a loan officer, financial advisor. So I, I, your advice versus get on TikTok and get a ring light is something that is very attractive to them. They definitely understand how to read yield and they're hearing from a, a legend. I mean you talk to somebody that back in the day, Tim Brahim, if I said that right, you know, only beat you by four loans one year, 676 to 672. You also have the, and I think one of your magical stories, you kind of hinted on this on how consumers with family and they, they adjust with, with having the kids. But you had Matthew, what was it right after your best month. So I think you had 124 loans.
[00:35:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:24] Speaker A: In one month.
32 million in August of 2004.
And, and you have a, you have a kid, so you gotta be walking around at night with. And it's like do I, do I outsource this? Is this the end of my. Am I selling my soul or am I, you know, a Scotsman's guide or what am I doing here? So what was that like teaching people generational dealing with gener.
[00:35:48] Speaker C: Yeah, that was my epiphany. There's so many of us that burn themselves out. I mean there's few. Number one guy, Sean, he's, he's, he's got it all together somehow. But he wakes up at 5 in the morning and does. And I wasn't that kind of a person. I, I was an econ major just so I could get the, I would be waking up from my classes with my engineer buddies would be coming back.
So it really, you know, it's like, it, it's, I'm not, I'm not a five o' clock in the morning person or whatever they do. But so what, what we would, I bought my son at the time and it was set because he had, he had gotten Lyme disease and it really scared me. I didn't know what he had. And we turned out it was Lyme disease and, and he was just going to preschool at the time. And so I bought a convertible, an older convertible that I could drive with it. It didn't have an airbag so I wouldn't like knock him out of the car if we got in an accident kind of thing. And I said every Friday we would listen to the. I don't remember that movie. Knight's Tale was Heath Ledger and they, it was awesome.
But so they have every quote in that movie and it's days like these are far too rare to cheat. And so I'm like, Matt, this is, this is, you know, I'm going to pick you up every Friday and, and you know, we'll ride in the convertible and we'll listen to this. You know, all the different songs. It was all Queen. Everything was, it was an awesome friggin. You know they do like all these rock and roll songs to do it to these nights jousting. It's a really good movie if you haven't seen it.
But anyway, I didn't pick him up that, that first Friday after they did that huge month. And he's sitting at the door and I'm like, matt, I just, he goes, where were you, dad? I'm like, I had to. I, I just finished closing the biggest month like you mentioned. It was, you know, it was 132, some crazy. 124 loans, 32 million. And I'm like, I've never done anything like this before. And he looked at me, he goes, dad, so you cheated.
So I, I'm like, oh my God, this is like crushing me. So I'm like, you know what? It's not worth risking my. I don't care if I do, you know, 300 million I'd already done, you know, the 180 million dollar years, 160 million. I'm like, it's not worth losing my family over. So I didn't, you know, it really affected me and it, it made it so that I realized that yes, it's important to make sure I take care of my clients as much as I can, but I'm not going to sit there and risk my whole family for it. And I think a lot of people in this business do and it's, and it's a mistake.
[00:37:58] Speaker B: Something that I've mentioned a few times in a few of the shows. When your values are clear, your decisions are easy. You know, when, when you're focused. Yeah. When you're focused on your family.
Then you figure, well, do I take this new loan app or do I have my. Do I have my assistants do it? And you go, I made a commitment to my son. So there we go. I'm going to commit to my son. And then I will talk, but I will talk to my customer because my value proposition to the customer is still a customer service. Let the assistant open it and then we can, we can figure out how. How to, how to really have the customer feel as best as they can.
So how does that for you on a regional basis? Would want to help people in the community as an originator. But then when did you start going from just local to national and thinking this is the time where I can now also give back to the community going to national conferences like the NBA or, or, or Lenders one or whatever.
[00:38:52] Speaker C: I, I was fortunate to work for Jim Patel in the business and he would. Our president's club would be to see like Barry Habib. You know, that was our. Or we'd go to Steve Marshall's events. We go to all the, the mortgage banker events. One, they're, they're a lot of fun. Like the one in Newport's the best. And that's where I'd meet Mike and he got me the Green Monsters. The first time I tried those when we were watching a Red Sox game in Washington D.C. and I got to meet him at a bunch of these different conferences, which they really are a lot of fun, but you learn a lot of things. I, I'm the guy that would just sit there and, and be writing notes and just trying to learn because it's just amazing. You just pick, you're going to pick one thing out of, out of these things that's going to help you get better. And you can always get better. I, I just, I just remember I heard Mike Dicka talk about it one time and he was on some. Where he would go and. Sorry, Bill Belichick was also part of the speaking thing and I went to see him, who was amazing speaker by the way. You'd be, you'd be surprised how good he is in, in person.
But, but, but so Dick, I was like, you know, you go to these things and you're, you get like a, your neck is like a muscle or a cord. And the more you hear these things, the stronger that cord gets and the more you learn. And so I just really think the, the more you learn, the, the more you're going to earn and just you learn different things every time. I'm Always I'm on like everything loan atlas, mortgage coach. You know, I, I, I love Tossa. I'm on mortgage highway. I just, I, I, I spend so much and every time they say, you know, it's just one loan, but I'm like, oh my God, I got to write a lot of loans just to cover all these things I belong to. So it keeps me motivated.
[00:40:28] Speaker A: I find, you know, we're in an industry where we build generational wealth for the families that we build it for.
And so I guess I have two questions. One relating to that. You must have a story where someone came back with their kid, now ready to buy a home or their nephew or their niece. But I want to have you follow up with this.
You know, you have Matt. So you actually have a purpose for a succession plan if you want it on what you're going to do with all these clients. Right. I think there's a lot of loan officers, you know, maybe their kids are five and so like are they gonna force that kid into taking over the, the book of business? Do they actually really have a, a book of business? And are they living for, are they, are they pushing hard for something that when they retire is sort of poof, gone. And maybe they should, should not maybe should. They should not cheat every day unless they have a plan of what they're actually building for. So kind of two part what story about generations coming back to you and proving you build generational wealth. And then what are the challenges of loan officers in, in their what, what they're building was a generation, the occupation.
[00:41:43] Speaker C: Well, it kind of ties into. You'd asked me how I got also to, to get away from my, from sitting. So I had a client that, he was one of the last clients that, that I actually met in the house with because I had no choice. I, my kids are all in vitro, so if you miss the days, you give them a shot. I don't know if it works. They're not, you're not going to have a kid. So I had twins and he, I went to his house, one of my favorite clients and at the time he had twin 13 year old daughters. And they started literally, I thought they were going to kill each other. I, I've never seen anything like that in my life. Like they, they were swearing at each other and ripping because one had worn the other one sweater and then they ripped the sweater in half and he's like, so I hadn't yet had my, the, I didn't know what I was having for twins and I can still remember him saying.
He looked at me right in the eye and he said, pray one's a boy. So I'm like, all right. So we're doing the ultrasound the next day and this is. He was literally the last client I did face to face with because I just almost missed getting home and giving the shots and all that. My wife's like, never again. So I learned how to do loans over the phone and all of that. But so we did the ultrasound. First one a girl, I'm like, second one boy, I'm like, thank goodness. So not that I love both my son and my daughter, but just to have. Not the same growing up. So go back now. Go back another.
So 15 years later I did their loan, both of them and they, they both bought homes together and I did both their houses. So there might, you know, so I've done that so many times where I've helped my clients kids and I joke about it, but I start doing the grandkids and I think I'm going to have to probably hand over the, the calculator to Matt.
[00:43:11] Speaker A: But Philip making it cool again.
[00:43:14] Speaker C: I know I'm thinking it's I can do it. If he can do it, I can do it.
[00:43:18] Speaker B: But man, he's John if. So you're teaching the loan officers around the entire country social media before social media was actually cool.
But what is one thing that you would want to teach an originator today or one lesson at least that would remind them that they could remind themselves what it is that they, that the. That keeps them going as an originator to stay in the profession and to stay the course.
[00:43:46] Speaker C: I I think, you know, adapting and learning to, to embrace technology. I mean I'm, I'm going to be out there. I mean you probably. I was out there skiing and kind of try to get up on my deck and I knocked myself into the side of my, my ski place. But I mean you don't have to do serious and I, I belong to a Ford Academy where they do Neil Dingra and he does these and it's amazing. I learned that from Barry Habib where he does, you know, you want to do some informational stuff, but it really. People want to see what you. You are. You want to build a personal brand through, through technology. It's so.
[00:44:18] Speaker A: And it's free.
[00:44:19] Speaker C: It's like, you know, people.
We went to our. When we were at the Synergy One, they had a power up sales rally in Denver and they had a speaker there and these guys do a ton of volume but he's like, you know, you guys are. You'll do a video and you'll get 200 views and you're like, oh, that stinks. But meanwhile, you're in a room. If you could have 200 people in front of you at all times, he goes, that's how many are in this room right now. And imagine if this is your audience you're getting for free. You know, people don't realize that you can.
I think younger loan officers should embrace the social media stuff and start using it and doing what you guys are doing with these podcasts. This is my first podcast I think I've ever done, so I feel like I'm a dinosaur. But it's amazing how you can do this and meet and get yourself in front of so many people and build a brand. We have those guys, the mortgage dads. They work for a company.
They're a riot. But half of this, half, I'd say like 80% of the stuff they do is just goofing around. And so I'm all for that. But you can, you know, they do give some good information. I.
If, If I give one of my.
Really, it's. It's one of my clients right now that's going through. He lost everything. His wife has got Parkinson's, so they took away. I'd give him a $300,000 refinance, cash out.
We didn't do the right pro. It wasn't my fault at the time, but I should have suggested going to a probate attorney because he didn't. She got Parkinson's. They. They took the 300,000 that he had for his retirement. And I'm now able, you know, having to do a loan for him right now where he has nothing. But it's just.
You've got it. So I did a video, one of the more serious ones, on just how important is to set up a will of trust and probate and. And get that set up so that in case something happens to one of your. They could still be alive and you'd lose everything, you know, so it just. That is so important that we could change, not only help build generational wealth like you mentioned, I mean, Mortgage Coach is another perfect example. I always recommend. And there's a way you can show what the investments grow and not to. But I took the 300 I saved from my. One of my first refinances and just gave it to my financial planner. When my kids went to go to school and I had three in college, that 300,000 had turned into 300,000 when they went to college. And it's money I didn't even know I was. It eventually just came out of my account. But had I just did not put it with a financial planner, it would have been gone. So that's the thing. You've got to. As a loan officer, we can really make a difference with people's lives and, and not now, but even 15 years from now. So that's where I think we got to be good.
[00:46:43] Speaker B: I don't think that originators today even understand some of the software that financial advisors use for. Well, like if they understood even what Red Tail is, Red Tails origination software. There's the. Is like a origination software for financial planners. And if they knew that and they could go, oh yeah, we can go over to right Capital. And then right Capital directly goes into Y charts. And that tells you about the markets and tells you about what's going on. I don't think enough originators actually understand that financial services side of. How is it that the financial advisor is using technology today to reach back to their clients and then how do they use that information so that the, the originator can say, oh, this is how the, the advisor is now tracking people. And this is how.
And this is now how I can also sync our technology with their technology and, and with the information that's readily available today, create more opportunities for their business.
I think that if we were to go back and say, hey, you know, mister, you, you were working with financial advisors, CPAs, state planning attorneys before it became cool, and now that it is cool, we actually don't even know enough. Bear Habib has been really adamant on doing, on teaching originators how to do that, but they really haven't caught on. They haven't got it. That's a term that a lot of people use.
So if there was someone that's brand new like you were back in 1986 and they're coming into the business today, what is a story that you would tell them that.
And is this, is this the same story that you would tell your son?
[00:48:20] Speaker C: Well, I, I'm telling my kids. It's just, it's amazing how even a 300 savings. So it's like people are, you know, when you go to help someone refinance, they're saying, well, it's only 300 bucks. But it's just, I tell them the story how it. That 300 turns into. To being able to afford college for my three kids, you know, so. And it's just money that if, if you don't do something with your savings. And they always say, I never was an advocate of a 15 year mortgage. So I said, you know, look, look to the longer. And there's. And I have a book. And it's funny, I went to look for it. I think Matt hit it again. But it's die with zero. Awesome book. And the guy. It's not that you don't have any money when you die, it's that you have enough money to pay off your mortgages. I told him I'm leaving this earth with the big. And I tell this to my clients, I always tell all my clients is that I'm leaving this earth with the biggest mortgage I can and let my kids freaking worry about it because I'd rather have the money that I can then use the financial freedom of having that money saved somewhere else. And that's what you have to learn is that the power of that rule of 72 and having money. And, and I tell all of them the Warren, my Warren Buffett quote that, you know, if money doesn't work for you while you sleep, you're gonna work until you die. And I don't, I wanna work till I die, but I don't wanna have to work till I die. So I mean that's the biggest thing right now is to let them know how you can help build wealth, build real estate. What is it? It's 40 times. The people that buy a home are 40 times more wealthier. You know, build wealth 40 times faster than ones that are renting. And you know that it's just incredible that it's just the best vehicle to have out there to use that and then to leverage that and then take that money that you can save from refinancing and all of that to, to build your future. When we have kids and they're in college, it's just we can make a difference in everybody's life. And I think that's, it's not just doing someone's loan and trying to get 100 million. And I did the thousand loans. It should be more than that. That's where I think a new loan officer just has to. We have to be more than just writing loans because we're going to get replaced.
[00:50:14] Speaker A: You talk about new loan officers. Just going back to the other question I had about legacy and what do all these. I think the average age is 54 of a loan officer.
[00:50:24] Speaker C: I should be retired soon. Then.
[00:50:27] Speaker A: What do you think should be the plan for the, the alumni class of, of yours and even the ones younger than you like what? Should they be passing it to their company? Should they be passing it to somebody they know? Should they be mentoring it to pass it? Or do they just let the candle kind of go out and know they did a great job while they were here in the industry?
[00:50:47] Speaker C: That's kind of a sad. That's. That's what I felt. You know, I. I actually feel as I was going to happen. So I want my.
And the problem is I don't. And again, I love this business. I don't. I think you've got to love writing loans. I mean, it's. It's a certain amount of. A certain kind of person that loves doing this, and I don't know what else we could possibly do. I tell them there's nothing else that you're going to be able to get the freedom. I mean, I was at the time, even, you know, four or five years ago when we, when Covid hit, we were making more money. I said, I am now making more money than one of my clients that's a rocket scientist and the other client that was a brain surgeon put together.
I was. My income was higher than both of their incomes put together at that time. Of course, you know, they're still making that kind of income. And, you know, we. We know what happens to the mortgage industry. But. But it's.
But it's. There's no other. And I got to see all my kids soccer games, I got to travel. You. You get so much freedom in this business. I don't think there's anything else that's going to. To allow this. But I really think it is something that I'd have a tough time telling.
You know, Matt's got my pipeline to help me and my clients and everything, but a new person coming in, it's going to be tough because it's. You've got AI, You've got. If you're just going to be a mortgage loan officer and write loans and not do more for your client, you're going to be replaced. We are replaceable, unfortunately.
[00:52:02] Speaker B: Is there anything that you wish that throughout your career that you wish you would have learned, like, you're doing it today, but you didn't do it in the 90s or you didn't do it in the 80s or 2000, in the early 2000s? Then you go, you know what? That's really good in the tech.
I like this.
[00:52:19] Speaker C: Oh, the, the tech space. I try to embrace all the new technology I can.
And, but as far as, like, I wish I had. Yeah, I wish I had spent more time actually working with real estate agents because it, I realized when the refis go away, they're pretty important, you know, and, and so even now, I mean I've always done purchase business from my financial planners and all that, but it's not the same as getting a lead from a, from a real estate agent. So that, that was the part that I really think I could have. But I also think I would have sacrificed my weekends and being able to ski with my kids and stuff because they're a little bit more demanding than my financial planners and my CPAs as far as the clients go. So I think that's part of me is happy I didn't, but the other part of me feels I could have probably done a lot more business if I had kind of built up that pillar of business.
But aside from that, I mean there's anybody that's not embracing that using this type of stuff. The podcast, the Zoom calls the. It's so easy to post a reel. It's crazy. I mean, okay, well I'm an old man and I can do it. You know, it's, it's. I think it's probably even funnier to someone like me do it but. And you don't have to be business. I think that's boring as anything if you're just going to do videos, you know, rates and terms and adjust for. I think that's crazy. But we can educate and let them know that how important is to get a probate and get will set up and put the homes in a trust before one of your spouses gets incapacitated and you could potentially lose your home. I mean there's a five year look back. You've gotta, you gotta start now to do all this type of stuff. So that's where I, that's my new thing is I'm gonna try to joke around with my videos and things but then try to do what I can to educate my clients and really important pieces of, you know, saving for college and all of the different type of stuff because I think that's more they don't need to hear about no point, no closing and all that kind of stuff.
[00:54:02] Speaker A: Thank you. And before we say farewell, John, anything you get some listeners, maybe they want to work under your wing for a year, work with you or work with Synergy one. Can you maybe tell us just how they can get in touch with you, why you enjoy getting up every day and you know, why Synergy one is such a, a great place or why your office is such a great place and why you're looking forward to the ski season coming up here?
[00:54:31] Speaker C: Definitely looking forward to the ski season and, and actually helping. And I've got my son and actually one of my other loan officers here that started. He did a. It's funny, he's signed up for a podcast and now uses the same service you did. He did it yesterday, so he's starting to do podcasts. And I think the more we can. And I'd love to have people come and work with our office and do that and you know, my cell phones on everything, you can find me in S. John Murray, you know, online and all of that. I think there's a lot of S's in there, the S. John Murray part. But I'd love to help or just I, I'm.
Whatever I can do to try help our industry. I'd love to. So if you have any questions, call me with stuff. But Synergy one is the most amazing. I mean their technology now even tapped into some of it. But it's the, the. We have 13 different GBTS that we can use for different. It's unbelievable. I mean, I, I talked to my daughter. You can, you can literally, you can say, you know, I want to input in $400 a month in a 401k. This is the average return. What will I expect in seven years and 10 years?
And it'll. It'll answer those questions for you. We don't need to have any fancy calculators or things, just use AI. And it's a. It's an. And we have one thing I'm still waiting on. We have. We have this person called Casey that will call my clients and she's an artificial. So I. It's a. You even have. And she sounds like a human.
So at some point they're probably going to use our voices, which I think not. I don't think we will, but I think that would be a mistake because I think you'll know it's not quite.
Whenever they answer the phone and call me S, I know it's a. It's an AI person, but. But it really is.
This is the best industry in the world. And if I can do anything to help someone, I would love to do it. This is what I'm. I think now this is what I need to be doing instead of just trying to write 100 million every year, that, that, that gets exhausting.
[00:56:11] Speaker A: Well, we heard your story. You definitely pivot quick into the. The greater decisions that make more whole in your life. So that could be one you. You spreading this message more and I think our audience is very thankful for it. Thank you for joining us on this journey into the heart of mortgage innovation.
Remember, every mortgage has a story and we're here to help you write yours. If you enjoyed today's insights, please subscribe, share with your network and connect with us on social media.
Until next time, keep pushing the boundaries and uncovering the stories that drive our industry forward.
