Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome to another Mic Dub Show. This is again the longest now running live every Thursday at 2pm eastern and.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: Of course at 11am in sunny San Diego, although today I'm broadcasting in New.
[00:00:17] Speaker A: York City, and if we have time, we'll certainly get into that. The Mic'd up show is expanding its influence in the mortgage industry and really getting into the fix and flip loan space, whether it's directly. But more importantly, we would like to help loan officers and branches and even lenders get into this space. And we believe the way to do it is to live it, experience it, and help originators be able to roll it out. I mean, you can't just do that. That's why Mike's in New York, which maybe he can touch. He can do the weave. You know, here we are post election, Donald Trump is president. The mortgage rates are going up, right? So, I mean, there's, there's a lot to talk about here. At the end of the year, it's going to be somewhat, it looks like maybe a cold winter again, maybe a strong spring again. And so today's topic is back to our roots, Mike, A lightning rod topic or Leora was nice enough to just talk about a general topic and we twisted it into a little bit of a lightning rod here.
And for all those that are listening on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcast, please give us a like a subscribe. I can't tell you how much and how important it is to us and we'd love a comment just to that would really resonate. You know, we know names in this industry, so we'd love to see who's listening.
With that, our guest today has been in the industry forever. I met her, I believe I met her. Actually. Liora and I differ on where we think we met and she's probably right, but I was under the assumption it was in New Orleans and she was with Christine Beckwith. But I think you say it was before that or not. But do you want to give an introduction, Leora, on your background? And you can also touch on the fact that you are a cmb, because we're going to make that a big part of today's topic and people are going to say, what is that? So maybe breaking down that acronym.
[00:02:22] Speaker C: So again, Leora Rosen. I have been in the mortgage industry almost 18 years now. It has been primarily on the operations side of things. I'd like to say I grew up in mortgage in secondary and capital markets. That's really where I grew and developed this passion for mortgage. I have worn literally every hat there is to wear, at least on the origination side of the business. Yes, I have been a loan officer for hot minute and while I was really good at it, it's just not my jam, not my cup of tea. There's people in the business that do it way better than I do and so I really have thrived and enjoyed living in mortgage on the capital markets and secondary side. So that's the quick and dirty. I have worked in virtually every channel that you can think of. So I worked with small IMVs, very large IMVs and I've worked in the credit union and bank space. So I really do feel I bring a unique perspective to the table and that I really do understand how every channel has a place in this business and how we really can help each other not just generate new business, but just really achieve the ultimate goal, which is homeownership for all.
As Mike mentioned, I do have my Certified Mortgage Banker designation and my Accredited Mortgage Professional designation, although I did it backwards. So to get your amp, you do have to attend the MBA School of Mortgage Banking courses. There are three of them and that usually is the segue to getting your Certified Mortgage as Certified Mortgage Banker designation. Because I like to be different and difficult and unique. I guess I decided to get my CMB first and then I went back and got my amt. So to be a Certified Mortgage Banker, it really is, I like to call it the. It is getting your CPA license if you're in accounting. It is like getting your MBA if you're in business. It does really take the creme de la creme of mortgage professionals and tells them, okay, you say you're an expert, prove it.
So it takes a lot of hard work and dedication. There are requirements to even get into the CMB program. And then after you get into the program you have to take a very lengthy prep course. There is a six hour written exam and a one hour oral panel. So it really is taking everything that you've learned and putting it into a practical application and really being able to present MBA's position on current issues and being able to speak to how does servicing help originations? How do processors help underwriters? What really is the life cycle of a mortgage and how does every role fit into it? And so it really is taking everything that everybody knows about mortgage and squeezing it into these three little letters and then taking it and using it to better our industry. I mean I could talk about this for hours, but that really is how I perceive being a cmb.
And for me personally Obtaining my CMB was not because I wanted the clout. I didn't want it for ego purposes. It really was because I wanted to take my passion and knowledge and turn it into something good and share that with other people. Which is why I take my CMB expertise and I actually teach for the Mortgage Bankers Association. So I have taught for CMB instructors. As a CMB instructor, I've helped curate the content for CMB prep courses and I also actively teach for School of mortgage banking 1 and 2.
Because I really feel once I get my CMB, it's important for me to keep it active and live and relevant. And so I really have taken what I've learned and I'm using it in a practical way again, I could talk about this all day. So I need to shut up for a minute, then look real quick.
[00:06:15] Speaker A: It's sort of the crutch of what we're going to get into.
Do you feel the CMB is designed for consumers where you're supposed to say, hey, I'm a certified mortgage banker.
This is why you should work with me and maybe you could talk about why it was originally designed and how people are using it today and if it's right or not, right or wrong, but maybe I don't want to put you on the spot. So whether it has not lost its way, but if it was designed for consumers and now it's mostly used for inside, or was it always designed for inside, but people on the inside, meaning C level at lenders really have not been refreshed on what actually goes into it. What is the CMB made for? Is it made for to put on my Facebook profile so consumers know, or is it supposed to be made for the IMBs to hire more of them so that I. Because I know a big piece that cmbs talk about is being able to tell if you were in a plane and sat next to a congressperson to be able to speak about the mortgage industry. Is that the sole purpose of it?
[00:07:28] Speaker C: I wouldn't say it's the sole purpose. And I will preface this with this is my perception and my interpretation of the program and what I see it can do for our business. That's my little disclaimer. I have to put that out there. I will say that, you know, I've been a CMB now for five years. I got it in 2019. And in my experience and as I have gone through and advocated for the industry, I will say in my perception that being a CMB really is about advocating for the industry and what that Means to you can be different than what it means to me. I don't personally see a lot of loan officers retain the CMB designation. Why is that? I don't honestly understand or know. Maybe loan officers feel, don't I do enough doing my continuing education every year, getting this, you know, completing the SAFE test, getting licensed in all these different states, which is also incredibly difficult to get and maintain your LO if you're in that space. But I just don't see a lot of loan officers retain the CMB designation. I think that it would be a great selling tool that you can tell consumers, look, I am not just a salesperson.
I am a steward of financial freedom and security and stability. And I can prove that because I've gone through this process of obtaining my cmb. And I don't want to ignore the AMP designation either because it is also a very important step. And I'm not saying it proves that you know what you're doing in your business, but it definitely gives you some additional cred. And there's a word I'm looking for just that proves that, okay, you do know what you're talking about. You talk the talk, but you also walk the walk.
It is important to have the designation if you are advocating in this business because it shows, again, you know what you're talking about and you have a position and you're willing to take it and be open and vocal about it.
Do I think lenders really understand what it means to be a cmb? I think that depends on the lender. And if they have people in leadership who also have that designation and understand what it took to get there and what it means to not only have it, but keep it. And those of us in the CMB society who are active as cmbs have really taken a concerted effort to hold CMBS to those covenants that you agreed to when you became a cmb, which is to advocate and to be a steward in this business, to keep active in this business. You may not always share MBA's position on certain issues, but you need to be able to speak to it and be able to share that with. As you know, as Mike mentioned, if I'm on a plane and someone, you know, those of us who are cmbs interactive, we go to state capitals, we go to national advocacy conference where we speak to our elected officials. And a lot of them know what it means to have this pen. And so when they ask me those hard questions, I need to be able to answer them and speak to them intelligently and with a Clear position. And that's really what it means for me to be a cmb. And I want to be able to take that and actually affect positive change on Capitol Hill and in my backyard.
[00:10:47] Speaker B: You know, Liora, I've been in the industry mainly as an originator for, I'll just say, since 96. And it wasn't until the last maybe two and a half years that I even knew that CNB or AMP was even a designation. And working in that retail space of originations, this is my personal experience, so I can't say this is the opinion of all originators nationwide, but in the retail space, my experience has been that, number one, except for one company, and I won't mention who they are yet, except for one company, none of the independent mortgage bankers, some which were larger, some which are smaller, they just didn't promote an advanced designation. And I would, and I would say that the designation of CMB and AMP have a higher degree of professionalism.
However, I think from a sales standpoint, at the origination level, it's viewed as if it's one of those additional realtor designations. Like, if you're a certified buyer, if you're a certified relocation agent, if you're certified, it's kind of like you take a few classes, you get a nice certificate, and you're kind of on your way. Except that the classes are harder, the examinations are harder, and the rigor to even get the Designation is like 10 times harder than just taking a few classes and saying, oh, yeah, I'm a certified buyer's agent, right? Just like it. It's, you know, it's like, why? In other words, like, if I'm in sales, number one, if my company isn't paying for it and it doesn't advance my business according to the relevancy of what I think I know, then why should I even bother being a cmb or why should I even bother being the amp? And I think that it really is.
[00:12:45] Speaker C: So much more than.
[00:12:47] Speaker B: I get that, and I get that. And prior to the show, Liora, we had just talked about, like, I, you know, that's. That's actually one of my goals is to get the designation right. And so I think that it's not just the designation of having that in being inside of a fraternal organization of professionals. It's. It goes deep in that. It goes into representation for our industry. It goes into the professionalism of understanding what it takes to be not just a mortgage originator, but a mortgage professional. And I think that somewhere between the last 20 years, there's been a lack of emphasis on being the professional. And because of what's happened since 2008 and even what's happened in the last two years, the emphasis just being sales, bringing in more units to fund, bringing in more units to go and originate for commission purposes so that we can bring in real revenue versus every funded loan brings a negative revenue that we've seen in the last year and a half versus now bringing in revenue so loans can actually be profitable and bringing in profits to the imb.
It's putting profits before professionalism at the IMB level. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong.
[00:14:01] Speaker C: By the way, the industry is in starvation mode right now and has been for the last two years.
And we didn't prepare. We didn't prepare for it. And you know, when we were in our heyday and you know, the 2020, the beginning of 2021, when we had more business than we know, knew what to do with, there were companies out there that did not plan for a rainy day. All they did was higher, higher, higher, higher. And then when, you know, when rates started to go up and volume dried out and everybody that could refinance did, and they're all sitting at that nice little 2 1/2% to 3% rate, what did mortgage companies do? They do what they always do. They started firing operations people en masse.
And now we're back to where we are, where thousands of people like me are unemployed and can't find a job because we're not salespeople. And there's this perception that because I've been in capital markets and secondary markets, that I don't have skills that are transferable to other roles or even other industries. Um, and so you would think me having my CMB would give me a leg up. And I, And I do think to your point, it's because companies don't understand that what it took to get that and how much money I personally had to spend out of my own pocket. I didn't get sponsorships to get my cmb, and amp, I paid out of pocket for my journey with the help of the FAFTA Diversity Scholarship that the MBA offers. Um, and so, you know, if businesses, if companies who. And a lot of these big companies are MBA members and they don't maximize the benefits of being a member of the mba.
Oh, am I calling someone out right now?
But just, you know, my sister works for an MBA member company and I told her she wants to learn more about mortgage so she can grow in her career. And I looked, you know, because I'm an MBA member for my business and I said, did you know that your company is an MBA member? And she said no. And she didn't even know what they offered. That she has access to free education, that she has access to all of those webinars as a member, as an employee of a member company. And if she doesn't know that, then how would she know about the AMP program or the CMB program?
[00:16:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I'll give you an example of what comes to mind here.
And it's not just the mba. Look, look what's happening to NAR right now. The reality is with the way the fractional world is going, and I say it at my board meetings for the Massachusetts Mortgage Bankers association, if you don't start to get involvement at the loan officer or processor, like in the street level where the numbers are and bubble it back up, there is a chance there will be disruption. You know, it's already feeling it here. But like on the future and because there's so many less wall gardens now, you know, there's not just one conference in town, there's not just one media place where the only one that could afford to put an advertisement out there. I mean LinkedIn's free. Look how many shows there are so people can get voices out there. I think one example, not saying it needed to be done, but if the mortgage companies out there during that huge higher fire process. Right. A couple years ago had made it clear that the cmbs, I think traditionally they did, was like first in, first out. Right. Like when they, when they cut culture wise. Makes sense. Those that sell the new statistical software would say does it make sense? You should go with the most efficient. But if they took a third rail there or a third stool, foot on the stool. If you maintained or kept the people with the CMB license or if the MBA worked with the lenders to make sure that was known, you would have such an influx of people getting their CMB right now because they would see the value of it. There's more job security. People are getting hired with the cmb. It's keeping jobs when it has absolutely little to do with. Well, you haven't heard any rumblings about that. Then it really comes to our next question, which is the perceptions of the cmb. Too much time, not enough roi, too expensive.
I personally, and I'll let you answer this Leor, I have heard none of those. All people talk about that get it is how rewarding it is.
I would say it's what happens two years later to me is the biggest blind spot, meaning where that value comes after you get it three years later, if you're not. If you can't afford to go out to these conferences, you can't go to the cmb, you know, reception. Where is that CMB located? You know us at the state level, we should be having a cmb, like, even if there's five people, like, it should be promoted. Where else should it be promoted? But it certainly feels like if you don't water the grass, it's going to turn into what Mike Zau says, which is it's perceived as that Alphabet soup that those realtors have. When I was a loan officer, very well aware of it, there was a lot of them. Right. Like, different. You didn't know. You never chose a realtor based on those letters. So you don't want to dilute it.
[00:19:37] Speaker C: Yeah. So how do you change the perception?
Sorry, I want to speak to this. So those of us again who are active in the CMB journey, and this is something that we have been speaking about heavily over the last two years, is what you are exactly saying. How do we bring value? How do we show that once we get our cmb, it's not a set it and forget it. Right. Where you get to keep your CMB in perpetuity even if you don't do anything with it. And so we have actively gone through the process of developing recertification programs where you have to show in some way that you are using your CMB to stay active in the business.
And I know there's other certification programs in other industries where you have to pay a fee to recertify. We don't look at it that way because anybody can pay a fee. Right. So we have to show through a recertification process, which again is a relatively new process in the CMB journey that shows we are attending industry events. We are, you know, we are active in certain ways, whether it's giving back our time and expertise through teaching, school of Mortgage banking, sponsoring CMB candidates. So if Mike Z. Came to me and said, I do want to go down this journey, I want to go down the path to get my cmb, what does that look like? Will you sponsor me? So I will hold his hand through that process. And I want to preface that when I went through my journey, I went through two sponsors because I wanted to make sure that the sponsor I had had time for me. Everybody gets busy and that, you know, that it was a good fit and it's not Always a good fit. It's like, you know, with jobs it's not always a good fit. And then I also went through a huge job change. So I took the CMB prep course twice because I was so invested in doing it right that I knew I wasn't ready after doing it the first time. And even though I took the CMB prep course twice, I still failed the written exam my first time. There's six, there's six pieces to the written exam. And the one piece I failed was secondary and capital markets, which is where I grew up. I was like, how did that happen? And it's because I got cocky and I didn't, you know, I didn't study enough. So I had to go through the process of retaking that section, which was a very humbling experience. But I'm saying this to tell you it is not easy.
It is not easy to go through this process or this journey. Which is why for me personally and so important for me to take that designation and do something with it. So it's not just on my title. That's not what it's about for me.
[00:22:23] Speaker B: I think you're. Over the course of the last month and a half, we've spoken to a lot of leaders, whether in capital markets or leadership themselves. And a lot of what we've been talking about is the non QM market. And I want to bring it back into not only the CMB designation and AMP designation, but also just being a member of the mba. And just for context right now I'm currently a passport member of the MBA because when originations were down and I had to switch over from, from originations to what I'm doing right now somewhat in creating my own position, it, it, you know, I wanted to be a member of the mba. Not just. It wasn't to get a job, it was to establish a further journey. And you, and you just can't automatically say I'm going to go take some classes and take an exam and, and be done with it. You actually need some experience with, with md, with mba, with the mba, needs to fight with the mba, maybe go to some conferences. And then on top of this there's like a, there is a journey that's involved with being. Not just getting the designation, but a journey just to get to the starting line.
[00:23:30] Speaker C: Yeah. Just to be able to sign up for the program, you have to obtain a certain number of points. And so the MBA will help curate your transcript based on the number of years you've been in the business, how active you are and you get points not for just being active with mba, if you're active with your state and local organizations, if you go to any industry conference, those points count towards your minimum required to get your CME be. But yes, you can't just say, okay, I'm ready. No, there's more to it than that. And they help you go through that process to tell you how ready you really are to start that journey, to actually sign up for the prep course and go through that process.
[00:24:09] Speaker B: Bill Dallas was on our show a few shows ago and one of the things he started the company, own it. And I'm bringing that up because when someone has the willingness, like right now I'm willing to do it, I don't have as many points yet, so I need to build up some points. Points, by the way. And so you have to be able to own your willingness to be in that, in that status as professional. Not only that. And you know, the question that was brought up, you know, do you know, is it, is it roi, is it time? Is it, what is it that causes someone to make the decision to say, I would like to be a CMB at AMP or even join the mba? By the way, it's not even because, you know, you go into ops, you go into operations, or if you go into sales and originations, you sit there and go, and you go through an entire roster of a member who's a member of the Mortgage Bankers Association. And by the way, the membership, the Mortgage Bankers association is probably so small compared to nar, the national association of Realtors. Right? And yet when NAR had this failure over the course of this last year, it was the perfect opportunity for the MBA to step up. And I hope I'm not stomping on anybody's post saying this, but really was the, it was the opportunity for the MBA to step and say, hey, you know what? We're going to do something. You know, it's not just about what are realtors and originators going to do to try and alleviate, to make the customer experience better. It's really about how can we, how can we reframe the narrative by the MBA to say as, as mortgage bankers or originators of mortgage loans. This is what we're doing to help the consumer actually understand the home ownership process, either as a buyer, a seller or a borrower.
And when you get to learn the ins and outs of it, I want to bring it back to non QM just for a moment. When you get to learn the ins and outs of it, whether it's that application stage or and you're at the rest of the compliance stage of Ellie and then CD of closing the underwriting stage. And then when you get to. And then when you go through and when you understand what it means to actually have the ability to repay. Now, now as a mortgage originating professional, it's not just. And I'm sure I know you have something to say. Just let me finish. No, no, it's not just about understanding. You get a 10 or three and then you look at the pricing, you know, you make 100 basis points and your commission and you're doing three, four loans or eight loans or however many loans that you're doing and then you call it night. You're actually now you get to own the business by owning what you know, not only in the education and also in the networking. Nick Babarcus was on our show and he said, hey, I go and call anonymously other members that was in my class when I don't know the answer to the, to a certain type of question. Right. And original. And I'm on a text thread right now with eight originators from eight different mortgage companies who are asking questions about, you know, I went through all regs and this FHA guideline or this or this agency guideline and they're all asking each other questions from different from different mortgage companies because they don't know the answer. Right. But really and, but being a part of a larger organization, I think not just the MBA but you know, having that fraternity of other mortgage professionals and going through the journey that you just talked about provides some landscape in the possibility of not just creating professionalism in the designation, but also professionalism in networking and then also professionalism in understanding the front, the middle and the end. Not just an origination but also the back end of what happens, you know, what happens if there's a post QC funding issue and why, you know, oh, you know, I lose my commission because it was a buyback because of this XYZ post credit mean QC issue or a low level price adjustment or whatever it's supposed to be and then understanding, you know, the front, the back when it's sold and why, you know, why are loans priced out certain types of ways There's a bigger picture than just under understanding picking up a 10 or three and then figuring out what is, you know, what does equal housing mean to the borrower.
[00:28:34] Speaker C: And we, those of us who are, who are active CMBS, we are part of the CMB society is what we call it. We have a LinkedIn group and we Also are we have our own section on MBA's website where we do exactly what you just said, where we ping each other's, we ping ideas off each other, we ask questions. I see many times where we have folks that are in the servicing side that have questions about how an upcoming regulation can have a change to a regulation or the adoption of a new regulation can have effects upstream and downstream through the origination to servicing process.
For me, you know, being a CMB over the last five years has been interesting because right after I got my CMB Covid hit and then I have been through a few job changes and I'm not the only one. There's a lot of us who have had to go through a few job changes over the last few years.
And I keep hearing, you know, I'm actively looking for a job, I'm reaching out to my network. I'm applying for 10, 12, 20 jobs a day. And I've been getting nothing but automated rejections, sometimes within minutes of me submitting my application. And what's been frustrating for me is that because I've had a few job changes, because I've had a small gap in employment, I can't get past these automated applicant tracking systems to actually get in front of a live person who will look at my resume, my experience, my dedication, and see that I bring so much more to the table than me having a few job changes over the last few years. And I. And I don't want to be that person, but I feel like I need to say it. You know, in this business, so much attention is put on sales and finding that rockstar salesperson, that ops people get left behind or we get forgotten about completely and we're often the first one in and the last one out, you know, and so it has been a frustrating few years. It's hard not to get emotional about it because I care so much about this business and being able to find a place to hang my hat and my CMD is something that's really important to me and that passion should be picked up by a company that will be like, oh my gosh, why is she not with us? Why is she not sharing that passion with others within our organization?
And I'm not saying I'm the best CMB out there, but I do have a voice. I'm often very loud about it, about how I feel about where we need to be as a business.
And there's so much importance in lifting each other up, especially right now. We are in a very difficult time, not just in our Business. But as a country, we just went through a very polarizing election. The results were not what some people expected. We are going to see a huge shakeup as a result of this. We don't know what's going to happen. We're waiting for the Feds to make a decision any moment on what's gonna happen with interest rates. Right. It's, I'm, I'm waiting. It should be any minute now. We will find out if they're going to cut rates or raise them.
And, and so what I'm trying to say, number one, this hasn't been a podcast about why you need to join the mba. It's not a podcast about why you need your cmb. It's a pod. You know, this particular session for me personally was about what can we do to help each other? What can we do as a, as an, you know, as an industry to help out those who want to be in it. And you know, I, I don't want to leave the mortgage industry, but I will if I have to because I have a family to take care of. Yay. 25 basis point cut. Thank you, Malik. Hi, Malik.
So the Feds have made the announcement they're going to cut interest rates another 25 basis points. Not to get off topic, but what we've been seeing over the last two to three months after the first rate cut is mortgage rates are not moving in kind to the 10 year Treasury. It's been very weird. It's, you know, just mortgage rates are not shifting in kind to what the market normally dictates. So it's been interesting and maybe now that the election is over, we'll get some stabilization and some, some actual corrections in the rates and we can actually make better projections about what's going to happen next year. So, but anyway, you know, I want people to know that I'm here to help you. Even though I'm unemployed right now and I might be trying to find a job, if I come across a position that I feel, you know, someone else is better qualified for than me, I'm going to let them know I'm here to help people. Even though I'm in a, where I need help too. And that's, that's part of what it's about, right? We, we need to help each other. I do feel that there's enough business and enough room for everybody to have a job in this industry if that's what they truly want. And we need to start looking at people and not just plugging a hole. Right? I call it the human spackle phenomenon or the human spackle effect. We as a business have been notorious for throwing people against a wall when we have too much business and then when we're done with them, we scrape them off. And so what can we do to better take care of the professionals who are passionate and are in this business for the long haul?
[00:33:54] Speaker A: I think part of it's recognizing where we are as an industry, as somebody who's sort of been all in for a while and able to not be in the weeds. And see, you know, you really have two routes here. One is you have the institutional mortgage providers, the credit unions and the banks, they are members and are they being educated well enough for cmbs and what that means and what that personality type, maybe disc. Whatever that is, how that is fits very well with typically how they hire and promote within and they care about the guardrails in place. I would say obviously that's work on the MBA's part and they're probably spread thin. But that is an area where the education needs to happen because it's a shame to see not only the cmbs out there that can't have a job. And I think again that people don't realize the depth of knowledge that goes into a CMB and the alumni there. But you know, as Ashley points out here, if I guess we're a podcast first. Right. So she's talking about. I'll just read it here. I know we talk a lot about to get the younger generation of mortgage professionals involved, which leads to designations down the road.
I think we need more mentorship programs out there for younger mortgage professionals that are not senior level management. I see a lot of opportunity for VP level or higher. But as I am only a senior analyst, even though I have over a decade in the industry with the AMP and the CMB intent, that's the theme of the show. I and many others don't qualify for those programs. So again, probably some gaps in some areas that are blind spots that need to be brushed off. Another point I was going to make Leora, then you could talk about Ashley's comment here. Yep. Is I mean and people do say like oh we need a mentorship program and then actually applying it or actually coming up with a system I think is where the gap is. So maybe Ashley just pointed out like the roadmap for some of these state level or national, like here's what the, here's what the mentorship program should be. But the other point, I was going to say knowing the industry, loan officers have drastically changed in their ability to make decisions whether it's technology, whether it's the mood of cmbs, etc over the last couple years, I guess I would ask you. And so that's on the IMB side, much more entrepreneurial. A lot of people are changing from enterprise corporate decisioning where maybe CMBS would have an easier designation, easier time to get hired. Now you're looking at a lot of distributed net branch P L models, right? Where it gets a little diluted by the time it gets down there. More likely to choose a friend locally over experience, I think and I don't know the answer there, maybe you can put it all together, but how do you get a loan officer or branch manager to say oh, I'd rather have a CMB processor working on this or I'd rather have this CMB closer. They are so much more like and that obviously needs to be somehow messaging in the monthly newsletters within the company or even from MBA out to their members. But that's the two lanes. I would say institutional, you heard what I said about that. IMVs entrepreneurial, you somehow have. And not just CMBS. Everybody kind of has to fix that shift.
And can it be done through mentorship or how would it? Obviously if you knew the answer, Leora, you wouldn't be exactly looking, right?
[00:37:37] Speaker C: Well, not necessarily. And here's the thing, number one, there's this perception that CMB to hire a cmb, they come with a prior, a higher price ticket and that may be true in certain cases. It depends on the role and depends on the company, right? And so for me, because I've been through this journey and because right after I got my cmb, you know, I've had a couple of job changes and I've been able to see what it's like to work for a couple of different companies and a couple of different channels. For me it's not about the money right now. I am not a job hopper. I am not someone who likes to go from job to job every couple of years even if it means I'm getting a promotion with the job change. For me, I am literally looking for my forever company. I'm looking for an opportunity to grow and to help a company grow with me. And that can come with a reduction in pay for me. It has to make sense for me not just from a financial perspective. So for all the companies out there that think to hire a CMB means they come with a six figure salary, that is not the case. That is not always the case. And so it just means let's Have a conversation about it. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about what role are you trying to fill, what problem are you trying to fix within your organization.
And everything is so tied to roles and titles and it doesn't need to be that way. It is. What do you bring to the table and what can you help us solve if it's, you know, our days to closing is 45 consistently. No matter what we do, we need you to come in and take a look at our process. We need to get down to 40 days, 35 days. Because every day that you can shave off the time to close, you're saving money on your locks, you're saving money on warehouse line fees, you're saving money on a bunch of different ways. And so it's removing this perception that number one to be in cmv, you're just in this funky little society where you guys all get together once a year and you run around wherever NBA's having annual that year doing funny things for the Amazing Race. That's just one small piece of it. I love the scavenger hunt, but that's just one small piece. It's it. You know, we, we are the stewards and the advocates. We are the ones that go to, to our state and local and national advocacy efforts to affect positive change. Those of us who are in the society are active. We are the ones who are helping to make these changes happen. Like with being able to get these laws passed for trigger leads. That was a humongous effort that came from a bunch of different organizations to include MBAs, state, local and the CMBS and the AMPS. Now to Ashley's point, on the mentorship side, the MBA actually did have a mentorship program for 18 months. The issue they were having was getting people to sign up. And I don't know if it was because member companies didn't know it existed or that they weren't supporting it. And so my call to action for the leadership out there, especially those who are paying the money to be an MBA member, why are you not letting your employees take advantage of that membership? If you have a mid level employee that wants to grow and wants to take advantage of a free membership mentorship program, why are you not supporting that? Why are you not incorporating that into their development plan and then you can talk about it during your one on ones? The reason I know this is because I was a mentor through that program and I have actually developed great friendships through mentoring men and women who are in those mid level roles. And so I would love to see that program come back, because I thought it was very impactful, but it required. Because the MBA is paying for that. Right. You pay for the membership, and then the MBA takes all those membership dollars, and they're turning it into all these different programs. And one of them was this mentorship program. But if not enough people participate in it, then it is a net loss for them. And so how do. How do we get MBA member companies to actually take advantage of the benefits that are available? And to that point, you know, the other piece to this is the roi.
If you spend money for something and you're not doing anything with it, well, then. And there you go. There's your roi. You're not taking advantage of what's available to you. Yeah. So, Ashley. Yes. Yeah, that's the mentorship program that I am speaking about.
So what can we do?
Engagement. Yes. And so I'd like to see that come back, but that requires participation, and it requires not just participation, but if you sign up to mentor, you need to make sure you actually show up through your mentee sessions and that you provide that value to the mentee as well. And so it's bidirectional. Right. You got to get people to sign up, and then you actually have to participate if you sign up. So, and I think, you know, we can create something that's similar through other organizations. The MDA is not the only organization out there. Right. We have organizations that are specific to credit unions. We have organizations that are specific to the wholesale space. Right. And so how do we engage in all of those different areas?
You know, we have some trade organizations out there that. That are similar to the mba, but they're, you know, a little different. You know, you've got your lenders one, you got your mortgage collaborative. So there's other ways that we can develop these mentorship programs, or you can just. Just say, you know, on LinkedIn. Hi, I'm Leora. I'm the CMD. I'd like to mentor you if you're interested, you know, if you're interested in learning more about secondary and capital markets and what it would take to get into that space. Let's talk. You know, and I. I won't charge a fee. I'm just here to share my passion and my knowledge, and I know there's many others out there who. Who feel the same way.
[00:43:37] Speaker A: We certainly can tell that about you. We appreciate it. One quick question, one quick, edgy question.
Do you find that the industry, the. The lenders. The industry then, is much more siloed in decision making. And I guess I don't know if ego then comes into play of guarding it. But you said like cutting down on a 45 day cycle. CMB's strength is knowing multiple departments. Seems like maybe people don't want to hire. Everybody's trying to keep their garden and people out of it, you know, not decisions in my backyard. And that's causing a freeze sometimes in maybe hiring.
[00:44:15] Speaker C: I would agree. I mean that's been a huge problem in the industry for as long as I've been in IT departments working in silos. And it makes it even more difficult as we've moved to a more virtual environment. Right. We've got processors in different parts of the country and the underwriters are in different parts of the country and then you've got your loan officers who are the boots on the ground in the field. And so how do we break down those silos when so many people are in so many different places? And to your point, this idea that not my circus, not my monkeys, why should I care? You should care because it affects your job in some way. And if we can't get from a 45 day to a 40 day cycle time, it's going to, you know what's going to happen? I'm going to have to let some people go because I can't get enough volume through the door to meet closing times. Especially if I'm a purchase heavy, know, mortgage company and I rely on those, you know, contract dates and I can't meet them. That's bad for my reputation, that's bad for my bottom line and I'm going to have to let some people go if I don't fix it. So you know, the other thing that I've been working on is two years ago, it's been almost two years since I, I decided to start my own business. So I do have my own business. It's not nearly enough to pay the bills but it's something that I still have that I'm passionate about. And part of what I do is I take my knowledge in a fractional way and I go into different companies and I consult with them and do exactly what I'm talking about. If I have a company that's like I've got this platform and I'm just not using it the way I need to, can you come in and take a look at it or you know, we, we've been a broker shop for a really long time and we want to switch to correspondent. I've been through those processes, I've Helped companies switch from non dell to delegated correspondent. I've helped helped companies get their Fannie and Freddie tickets, their Ginny tickets. I've helped them get their HUD and va. I've helped them switch from best efforts to mandatory delivery so they can make better pricing and better delivery options on their loans. And so if there's companies out there that are like, you know, lior, you bring a lot of value but I just don't know if I need you forever. I just need you for maybe 6 months to 12 months to help us get this project going. And I know there's others out there who are looking for those same opportunities. So for me personally, I'm open to whatever makes sense for me, allows me to utilize my skills. And yeah, maybe I'm trying to sell myself right now, but isn't that what we're all trying to do in some way, whether it's on these podcasts or through social media or through all these networking opportunities is here's what I bring to the table, here's how I can bring value to your organization. Let's talk about a way to make it happen. Whether it's you hiring me full time or just hiring me on a fractional space.
And so, you know, I, Mike, I think it is kind of an ego thing. I think that there's companies out there that they just have their heads in the sand and they, you know, they, they don't want to invest in a full time long term solution. They're looking for a quick fix and they'll just throw money and people at it instead of looking for something that's long term and viable.
[00:47:23] Speaker B: You know, I'm going to ask another devil question here. Do you think this is something from Bob as the leader of the MBA that could go to the leaders of each, the CEO or president of each IMB and say, hey, you guys are members. But you know, out of all this membership, look, oh Look, C suite, CMB, CMB, everyone else, nothing. If there are say 200, I don't know how many there are, but let's say there's 200 IMDs that are members and maybe another 50 banks that are members of the MBA and they say, well you've got X amount of members and maybe 2% are actual designations and then the remaining doesn't have it. So what, you know, but if, but if we had like, if we took the number from 2 to 3% up to like 15%, the MBA at that point could say, you know, promise that your IMB will promise to bring X amount of members. And maybe at that point, because there's, if we could, like quint, you know, 10x the membership, then the fees could maybe come down. And then also there'd be more people invested into the professionalism of our industry because very unfortunately, we're not seen as professionals in the mortgage industry and banking. We're. I mean, it used to be that lawyers would have been like, you know, oh, you know, you know, how, how many lawyers need to go swimming? All of them need to go swimming and drown. Well, we're not even at that point where they want to see mortgage bankers drown in the ocean. We're not even at the level of being evil or mean. We're just like, we're just, we're just more salespeople.
And I think as an industry, if we don't even have the professionalism of going into that direction, why should a leader of an independent mortgage, mortgage bank, or a broker or a bank, FDIC bank or credit union that's a member of the mba, why should they pay for that?
And by the way, that's a rhetorical question. I'm not saying that, you know, Mr. Leader, you should be doing this, I'm asking that rhetorically, but also to leadership to say, you know, let's think about this very carefully and say we need to be able to say cohesively, every member saying, not just be a member of a, of an organization where, you know, all of a sudden you could sign up for free and, you know, you can now will be, you know, now we'll support your business and we'll increase the mortgage industry. And so, which is great. However, is it enough? I don't have the answer, by the way, but I am asking to see if leadership of the mba, if I can call them out and say, and I didn't go to the last MBA in Denver, but if they were, was it announced and called out to say, leaders, let's bring the number from 3% up to 15%. And if we were to 10x the amount of membership for that purpose, would the fees be better? Would there be more people taking classes and would it be a standard to go get a CMB or AMP designation rather than a sidebar?
[00:50:34] Speaker C: Right. And I will say that there is a barrier to entry specifically for the AMP to get your amp. It is expensive. I'm not going to lie. Speaking out of paying out of pocket for, you know, and again, if I wasn't the recipient of the pac, the diversity scholarship, which I would like to speak on just A brief moment, because I think that this will help people understand. There is a pact that to your CMB and your amp, each court you have to take of all three courses, School of Mortgage Banking 1, 2 and 3, and each one has a fee.
Once you complete that, though, you're done. Once you complete School Mortgage Banking three, you do your presentation, you get your amp, and that really should be the foundation for getting your cmb. I wouldn't recommend doing it the way I did it. I really think getting your amp first just makes more sense than getting your cmb. I just like to be different again.
So I do think there is a barrier of entry from a cost perspective, but I do think member companies need to put up the money. I shouldn't be working for a huge IMD and still paying out of pocket to get my amp. That didn't make any sense to me whatsoever. And I made it very clear that that's what I wanted. And I made it clear this is how I was going to use my amp to be a better employee and a better steward of the business. And so for any, you know, for many, any member company, to say no to that just doesn't make sense to me in any way, shape or form.
So the Path to Diversity Scholarship, which is funded by member companies, gives people an opportunity to, if you're a recipient recipient, you get up to $2,000 that can be used to attend any education offering that the, that the MBA offers. That includes your CMB and your amp. And you can get that scholarship once a year for up to three years. And so I got it twice. And without that, I wouldn't have my CME and I wouldn't have my amp. So I am grateful to the member companies who help fund that scholarship because I wouldn't be where I am without it and I wouldn't even be in a position where I can speak to the issues and speak to what we should be doing as an industry without my CMB and without my amp. So, yes, even though I am currently unemployed and it's been a difficult few years, I am still in a better place now than I was before I got my CMB and before I got my amp. I would just be another person in a sea of 150,000 mortgage professionals. And so it does set me apart. And that's why I'm like, why am I still an employee? We're going to figure this out. We are going to figure this out.
[00:53:16] Speaker A: Seriously. I mean, yeah, whether it's an established company that needs the license, like I should Say I want somebody with a designation to bring in some mature thoughts or just somebody growing. I mean hello, if you're going to grow, especially if you're going to expand channels broker to Dell, non Dell. Going from retail to wholesale.
That's where knowledge becomes power and 100%.
[00:53:47] Speaker C: Yeah, I would even, yeah, I've seen too many companies try to make that transition and they're wholly unprepared. They just think oh I'll start offering these products. And they don't, they don't have a home for them, they're not pricing them correctly. They don't even have their system set up to manage them. You need professionals who have been through that journey to help you get there. So you do it right. Because what's better than making money not having to buy back a loan a hundred percent all day long. The best loans are sold loans that are quality and that I know will perform.
[00:54:20] Speaker A: And I think part of the shift would be when does the CMB second level class right start to revolve around technology. And now it's hard because they change so learning one and then shifting to another. But the reality is as we come up here on the end of the hour, the reality is everything sort of went offshore. And then we have sponsors like Silverwork Solutions that is going to be digital labor. That is one company went from 38 people on the disclosure desk down to three and they're still able to handle the same volume, no problem.
Somebody with a CMB that knows how to use that software. By the way, they're not replacing, they're replacing what typically is, would have ended up or already is offshore. Like that was going to be the trend. Right?
Meaning every technology company but you get a Silverwork Solutions you get a sapiens decision that allows you to take decisions and turn them into decision models help. A great use case of that that we're finding out is all these people from the NBA. This is a cool one. A lot of these IMBs are having people with 30, 40 years of experience retire and they're, they have to like drain their brain on the way out to get all that tribal knowledge to make sure they don't lose it and write it down on a piece of paper. And that's actually one of the top, top new reasons for decisioning would be put them all into models. Have them model everything in their head on, on the way out. If you can get somebody with a CMB that doesn't just, but also knows how to use this technology so that now you have some, some oversight through the machines, through the robotics, through the AI. But it's somebody that knows the repercussions more than just their own. Right. I mean if you know what the repercussions would be in servicing or as Michael Zoui says, an early payoff or buybacks and you know how to use this technology that is replacing people.
I think that's the only way to stay to buck the trend of typically has been higher through culture. Right. Keep who's most important to culture even if they're not the best and live for another day, for another cycle and promise that all those other people, you'll hire them back and get them, but keep those and then run a little bit less efficient.
Thank you for coming on and telling the story and hopefully when we by next week's show we will have announced which company hired you after they saw this and any other CMB out there that is interested, we may be able to find a way to get you on this show. We can do our part in trying to help get your voice out there, your name out there, because it doesn't make much sense to us.
Mike Zhao, you always finish it off strong. Any final thoughts?
[00:57:12] Speaker B: I mentioned Passport member. A lot of people have capital constraints because of, you know, for either to lack of employment or lack of lack of income. I think that if we mentioned that the Passport program is if you're not a member of the MBA right now, you can join the Passport program which while it's in place at a reduced fee to be a member just to be a member of the MBA and in that. And you know, you get the newsletters. I mean I read the newsletters every week that I get not only on the residential side but also on the commercial side. So it gives me great context. On the commercial side I get to read what's going on in multifamily gives me context of renters and what renters are going through as far as development and building more inventory and so on and so forth. And that gives me context of understanding the retail housing environment as, as well. And of course I'm on my way of just getting enough points just to even sign up to take the school of mortgage banking one. I don't even know if it points yet, but I'm working on figuring, trying to figure that out right now. But in the meantime, I think that this is a great conversation because we've had a lot of people over the last two years trying to figure out even if they want to stay inside of the mortgage industry either due to the layoffs or due to companies closing down or just, or a combination or mergers and acquisitions or a number of, of missed opportunities. I think that this is something that needs to be talked about.
This is a conversation actually, that needed to be mentioned a long time ago. They are. Thank you so much for coming on and I appreciate you being transparent for that purpose because always we're hoping. Yeah, I hope that this conversation actually gets brought up more often over the course as we come out to the end of the year into leadership. And we hope that one of the results will be employment for you.
[00:59:03] Speaker C: I appreciate that. And as I always say, once, once you get, you know, it, it's always a heartbreaking moment when you see a CMB leave the business. So.
[00:59:11] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:59:12] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:59:12] Speaker B: Well, until then, Mike, you know, we're, we're every, we're here every Thursday, remember, to, like, subscribe and what else? And listen on Spotify, YouTube and. And what? And what's the other avenue, Mike?
[00:59:27] Speaker A: Yeah, the Apple Podcast. Really? Anywhere there's a podcast. And our YouTube station is full of great videos, including a mic drop coming soon. Thank you everybody, for tuning in today.
