Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome, everybody, to season four of the mic'd up show, where every mortgage has a story.
This is the ultimate hub where these hidden stories behind the mortgage industry come to life. I'm Michael Kelleher.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: And I am Michael Zhao.
[00:00:15] Speaker A: And together we'll dive deep into the entrepreneurial spirit, the strategic insights and the breakthrough innovations that build the world's greatest mortgage companies. And tonight, today, we have a president of a mortgage company that is growing. And this is why it's important. Because if you're advancing your career or scouting for industry leaders or even exploring opportunities in fintech prop tech, how are they working with mortgage companies and people trying to get homes, you are in the right place. Let's get ready to unlock the story behind every mortgage.
Let's dive in. Today we have Andrew Penagos on, I hope I pronounced that correct correctly, who is president of GO Mortgage, which we have seen has been really started kind of in the middle and has been expanding on both coasts. And we'll, we'll kind of hear more about that.
But it sometimes we like to take you back to some point earlier in your mortgage career. Can you talk about. I, I noticed that you were from before the financial crisis to after the financial crisis over in New England, where I'm from, down in Providence, Rhode Island. What was that experience like and how do you think that has shaped you on your journey from there to now being president of a growing large imb I.
[00:01:35] Speaker C: And thank you guys for having me.
[00:01:36] Speaker D: This is terrific.
[00:01:37] Speaker C: Appreciate both of you making the time.
I will tell you this, Mike and Mike, it very much shaped the future of my career. In fact, to a point where I give it all the credit that those years were instrumental.
[00:01:54] Speaker D: We all have jobs, opportunities, mentors, right? We're all in organizations.
[00:01:58] Speaker C: When you're, when you're successfully out there consulting, the education you receive, both things are being done well. Things are not being done so well. The education you get from interacting with so many different leaders in not only, you know, community banks, credit unions, IMBs, you get a legitimate, to be fair, you're working extremely hard, but as you guys probably know, but you really do get an amazing education in various styles, various setups, capital market strategies, portfolio management. With and without a book.
You get a lot of information in.
[00:02:37] Speaker D: A very compressed amount of time from.
[00:02:39] Speaker C: A lot of really smart people who were trying to recover from what was at the time the biggest meltdown in our industry. And so for me, I don't think I'm sitting here, I don't think I'm nearly the person Leader or mortgage pro without that experience. So I hold that with a lot of reverence frankly, that we went out and did that with the group. So terrific, just terrific.
[00:03:02] Speaker D: I can't, I couldn't be more thrilled.
[00:03:04] Speaker C: About that, that experience.
[00:03:08] Speaker D: To where you.
[00:03:09] Speaker A: Now are running a company.
This company also made it through the financial crisis, been around for two decades.
Fannie Mae servicer seller, Freddie Mac direct lender, Jeannie Mae security issuer. So it has everything, you know, a loan officer needs to go out there and get the business they want.
I have questions about org charts and what career growth is in the future here.
Your career growth is similar to 50% of people that end up in your position. They go to different positions, learn different, different stops. Do you think that will continue to be how the next presidents will be in this industry or do you think that the org charts are going to change how people end up becoming president if in the next five, ten years down the road?
[00:04:03] Speaker C: Yeah, I think, I think it's going to evolve. I, I don't think.
Well you, I mean Michael, you know this about. I, I don't think traditional, I don't think the way we've always done it is going to be the way we do it. And, and so I think organizations are going to be much flatter than they are today. And I think, you know, they're going to look a little more like a fintech and a little less like a, a machine that's grinding units out every month. And from my perspective, I think presidents or CEOs, CEOs, whatever you want to.
[00:04:36] Speaker D: Label, right, whatever letters you want to.
[00:04:38] Speaker C: Put in front of their names are.
[00:04:39] Speaker D: Going to have to be a little bit ambidextrous.
[00:04:41] Speaker C: They're going to have to understand, maximize what you do today really, really well, right? Keep your people front and center and.
[00:04:47] Speaker D: The client experience and your sales teams.
[00:04:49] Speaker C: And then through the evolution of the.
[00:04:51] Speaker D: Next five or 10 years, you really.
[00:04:54] Speaker C: Have to spend the other half of your day sort of scouting what's next.
[00:04:58] Speaker D: On the horizon, being at the front.
[00:04:59] Speaker C: Of the wave as it relates to innovation data.
How do you touch the client?
[00:05:04] Speaker D: What's the client experience really supposed to look like?
[00:05:06] Speaker C: What is that next wave of home.
[00:05:08] Speaker D: Buyers coming through that age?
[00:05:10] Speaker C: You know, you've all seen those columns.
The perfect home buyer coming into first time home buying season in age bands. Those things are, you know, in the old days it was, let's say the old days, I am part of the old days, was very much gain market share, volume grind, not a ton of tech, a Little bit process. Have a really slick process, people.
That's to me the transition is headed toward really a slicker, more engaged, more upfront client experience.
[00:05:44] Speaker D: And so for me, that term ambidexterity.
[00:05:46] Speaker C: Really being, you know, one foot today and then one foot in tomorrow, that's going to be where the next round.
[00:05:53] Speaker D: Of leaders comes from in our business.
[00:05:55] Speaker C: And that's not a traditional head processed, underwrote. I got into sales, I was in wholesale. You know, it's not going to be that anymore. So I think it's going to be much flatter and it's going to be a lot more innovation based.
[00:06:06] Speaker D: My opinion.
[00:06:07] Speaker B: Does that mean that leadership as it stands right now across the board with most AMB are broken? Because effectively executive teams are doing the same thing and they're not being as nimble.
[00:06:21] Speaker C: Yeah, Michael, honestly, I did another, I did a couple of posts on this.
[00:06:26] Speaker D: And a couple of shows.
[00:06:28] Speaker C: I Every mortgage leader.
[00:06:30] Speaker D: Not every.
[00:06:31] Speaker C: It's a hyperbolic statement.
[00:06:32] Speaker D: But look, they look too much like me.
[00:06:34] Speaker C: And frankly, you know, we're all in our 50s and we're all sort of experienced and the problem with this, good and bad, a lot of wisdom in there and there's a lot of intuition and certainly understanding the business. But to your point, leadership to me is about now, is not only about your people, but it's about, okay, how do you maximize your people through innovation.
[00:06:58] Speaker D: Through tech, through strategy, through different referral sources.
[00:07:01] Speaker C: You know, you can't bring donuts to.
[00:07:03] Speaker D: The realtor is not a strategy anymore.
[00:07:05] Speaker C: That's just not where this business is headed.
[00:07:07] Speaker D: And to a degree, and I, and.
[00:07:09] Speaker C: I said this publicly, I'm happy to take the heat for it and I probably will again.
Yeah, leadership's a little broken in our business.
[00:07:14] Speaker D: It's transitional.
[00:07:15] Speaker C: Right now we have too many me's and not enough younger people who want.
[00:07:20] Speaker D: To get into the business who are.
[00:07:22] Speaker C: Excited like I was in my 20s.
[00:07:25] Speaker D: And 30s about the industry and where it was going.
[00:07:27] Speaker C: And so for me, and one of.
[00:07:29] Speaker D: The things I try and do desperately.
[00:07:31] Speaker C: Is, you know, no knowledge, hostage seeking, really dumping what's in my head, good and bad mistakes and successes into, into.
[00:07:38] Speaker D: Maybe the next generation of folks who.
[00:07:41] Speaker C: Who really can take this thing to.
[00:07:42] Speaker D: The next level when I'm done.
[00:07:43] Speaker C: So yeah, I think fundamentally it's, it's a little, it's. How about not broken? How about cracked a little bit? How about stress cracks around it?
[00:07:50] Speaker B: Then does that also mean that, that, that the leaders need, if the leaders lead change, then does our governmental leadership Also need change. For example, at the Mortgage Bankers association, are they. Is that also broken and does that cause some want for change or need for change, in your opinion?
[00:08:07] Speaker C: I do. I've said this publicly. I'm not, I'm not afraid to address it. I think, you know, I think you.
[00:08:13] Speaker D: Lose a lot in this industry if.
[00:08:14] Speaker C: You lose the mid, you know, to, I call it the mid.
[00:08:18] Speaker D: The MID majors and then the majors. Right. The imbs, the big, big imb's and the majors. Did the MID majors and the mids. And if you start losing the MID.
[00:08:25] Speaker C: Majors and the mids, it's bad for the consumer, frankly. It's bad for the industry.
You're going to see more people with.
[00:08:32] Speaker D: A lot of talent not be here.
[00:08:34] Speaker C: In this industry, which is bad for everyone. And I, I think the NBA is not doing a good enough job advocating.
[00:08:40] Speaker D: For the mids and the MID majors.
[00:08:42] Speaker C: In my opinion, through the organization. I, I didn't love the new trigger lead, Bill. I, you know, there's lots of things. We could probably go offshoot into that for an hour.
And I am a local OMBA at the Ohio NBA. I am a board member there and I do, I feel strongly about it. We got to do a better job.
[00:09:01] Speaker D: Advocating protecting the MID and the MID majors.
[00:09:03] Speaker C: I think they're really important to the mortgage ecosystem and for clients.
[00:09:08] Speaker D: So I feel pretty strongly about that.
[00:09:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I always say I was able to build my mobile app on the back of MID and mid majors and their willingness to innovate and their willingness to make decisions faster.
I think right now a lot of fragmented views on where technology could go.
Your post really stood out to me.
But I also, in preparing for this, saw you have a extensive compliance background.
To me, it seems you can't make technology without the awareness of compliance. And when you're getting opinions from people that don't understand compliance yet that. What are your views on just betting too much without factoring risk or how much risk will factor into your view of technologies in the future?
[00:09:58] Speaker C: Yeah, a lot. And to the point where we would bring in council, whether it's our internal counsel.
[00:10:04] Speaker D: Right.
[00:10:05] Speaker C: Or retained counsel, into some of those strategies around tech and around what we're trying to innovate and, and things like, you know, your business development managers and things that you've heard about a lot in the industry.
You know, we were sort of front and center with that. But that's, that's a strategic advantage, guys.
[00:10:23] Speaker D: In my opinion, if you do understand.
[00:10:26] Speaker C: Compliance sort of where it fits, where it stretches, where it doesn't what's coming down the pike really understanding the roadmap?
Forget the administration and what's going on there, but just in the longer term.
[00:10:39] Speaker D: Scope of where the business is headed.
[00:10:41] Speaker C: From a compliance perspective, it's a strategic.
[00:10:45] Speaker D: Advantage when you, when you take that.
[00:10:47] Speaker C: Knowledge and really smart people and they're in the room. When you're talking about innovating, changing, you know, implementing tech, and then as you evaluate the tech, it's got to be.
[00:10:57] Speaker D: Able to grow and scale to whatever you think the strategy will be pushing.
[00:11:01] Speaker C: Forward in the business. So it's, I think people, I think people dismiss it a little bit. Everybody likes the sexy sales, you know.
[00:11:09] Speaker D: And it's certainly important, right?
[00:11:11] Speaker C: We're going to support our salespeople more than anybody. But you. It's a strategic advantage if you can play that, that you can play compliance.
[00:11:17] Speaker D: Into what you're building.
[00:11:19] Speaker C: Not only for now, as I said.
[00:11:20] Speaker D: Before, a little ambidextrous, but for the future, it's a huge plus. You're not tearing stuff out as much.
[00:11:25] Speaker C: You're not recalibrating the enhancements of the technology.
[00:11:29] Speaker D: If you can be a little bit proactive in thinking about where it needs to go, not just where it is today.
[00:11:33] Speaker C: So huge, huge plus for everybody doing that in the business. And that's another thing I think we do relatively well on this leadership team.
[00:11:40] Speaker D: Is include that in the process.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: So if you think that there's, that there's some broken things that are going on right now, then when was the last time that you took a loan application with an originator that you could go through that process and say, okay, yeah, this is broken and these are, these are the main problems. What makes you think that there could be change and where does it stand at the origination level and at the tech stack level?
[00:12:05] Speaker C: So we, oddly enough, I try at least, you know, and I say try.
[00:12:09] Speaker D: Guys, I get it right?
[00:12:11] Speaker C: I don't always succeed, but quarterly, we got a few folks here, not just in sales, but have, have been in sales and originate a little bit better.
[00:12:20] Speaker D: In either training or ops or whatever.
[00:12:22] Speaker C: And I make it a point.
[00:12:24] Speaker D: Hey, walk me through this thing.
[00:12:25] Speaker C: I, I'm, you know, it's, it always sounds great, right? Mike, you and I talked about this.
[00:12:30] Speaker D: Mike K. Like, hey, it's a sexy.
[00:12:32] Speaker C: Thing and we implemented this.
I need, I like to see it on the ground.
[00:12:36] Speaker D: What's the client feel?
[00:12:37] Speaker C: Number one, what is the ELO feel? Does it really give them a pickup? And inevitably what I get is the feedback of, hey, it's okay. But this would really make my job a lot easier and that to me is invaluable. Right.
[00:12:50] Speaker D: That's gold.
[00:12:51] Speaker C: That's street level data that matters not only to your salespeople but probably to the client. So I like to get in the.
[00:12:57] Speaker D: Weeds a little bit, Mike, as much.
[00:12:59] Speaker C: As I can and see it when we roll something new out right, when whatever that, you know, it doesn't need.
[00:13:05] Speaker D: To be a big part of the.
[00:13:06] Speaker C: Stack, even some of the plugins, whether that's rpa, little bit of AI, a little bit of analytics, I definitely want to step in and see it.
[00:13:14] Speaker D: Right.
[00:13:15] Speaker C: Just because I think it's going to work or it's set up properly or.
[00:13:18] Speaker D: It'S behaving the right way doesn't mean that it is.
[00:13:21] Speaker C: So that's what I meant earlier about leadership. Now is going to have to be flatter.
It's going to have to sit down a little bit, get feedback in real.
[00:13:31] Speaker D: Time from the street especially, but from.
[00:13:33] Speaker C: Everybody in the org and be nimble enough to make change, be smart, you know, future focused while not not turning the Apple card over today where the business can't get done. That's a different skill set than leaders have had in this business before in my opinion.
[00:13:47] Speaker D: That's not the same leader that that.
[00:13:48] Speaker C: Was in the business 15 years ago.
[00:13:50] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think the majority problem is as lenders we're very milestone driven and consumers are just experience driven. The goal is how can you get them to have one less thing to do like you said.
But your, you know, staff is focused on milestones and I get everybody's the talk now is tasks, but is that such an old concept? Is that out of date? We're going to talk about that and some other questions based on your posts recently. After this quick commercial break. It takes about minute, minute and a half. Stay tuned. Listeners.
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[00:15:50] Speaker G: This year where the company can do the configurability. So we have no code on this. So they can go in their settings, they can set it up all the way down to the loan officer if they want to. We also have a customer support team that's assigned to each account if they want. They can overhaul everything if they wanted to. They have a new product, especially dynamic apps. With dynamic apps we can fit multiple, we can fit the Fannie Freddy loans, we can new construction, one time clothes, HELOCs, you know, whatever those workflows are, they can design that workflow each individual app. So it's not a stating app. And plus too is as they're answering those questions, it'll ask them specifically what they need. So the borrower has everything at their fingertips right then and there. You know, when a question gets answered, certain documents are required and we have that engine that handles that. So if uploads directly into flow FI pushes it automatically into the los. If the loan officer they are able to set it up where it looks like if the processor needs something they can communicate as a team. So it looks like it's coming directly from the loan officer that they're already used and have that relationship with. So it's not somebody that they never talk to. Now what's going to take it to the next level is the AI and the OCR piece.
[00:17:04] Speaker A: All right, welcome back.
I think do you want to talk real quick about the reaction you got to your post?
That was like a couple people were saying it in, in the week, but I think you did a really good job of articulating what the current state is, not future. What were you challenging everybody by saying? Are we thinking about the LOS correctly?
[00:17:28] Speaker C: Yeah, look, I think the LOS and I think we're all talking about the elephant in the room, right? It's our friends over at ICE and they're, they're, I'll I'll get a nasty.
[00:17:36] Speaker D: Call after this look, and I love those throws here. They're good people.
[00:17:40] Speaker C: But look, for 25 years, right, you can't help. I think I compared it to Stockholm syndrome, which is probably a little, A little, you know, a little hyperbolic. But at the end of the day, you can't help it that as a leader, it influences how you develop strategy, how you think about tech, how you.
[00:18:02] Speaker D: Think about process and the limitations within.
[00:18:05] Speaker C: The Los Angeles, you know, confine the imagination and innovation, frankly. And we've become so enamored or dependent might be the right word from a recruiting perspective or a fear perspective or changing los or any of those things.
[00:18:22] Speaker D: So dependent the workflow fits into Encompass.
[00:18:25] Speaker C: The way it's supposed to that mortgage.
[00:18:29] Speaker D: Companies are almost held hostage at this.
[00:18:31] Speaker C: Point in staying with ice.
[00:18:33] Speaker D: And that's okay if it works for.
[00:18:35] Speaker C: You, but I think it's not great for the industry and it's not great for innovation and rethinking. You brought up tasks earlier, right, Mike. And I use the term certainly to people around me in the business, but really, to be more specific, work cues are a much better language or iteration for what really I'm talking about when I talk about tasks and overlapping, parallel work within the work queues, things happening at the ground level in real time.
That's what this milestone linear hop, hop, hop workflow does not allow. Well, for.
[00:19:18] Speaker D: At all.
[00:19:20] Speaker C: And for me, I think it's really important for us to constantly be looking for a new way to do it. And so to me, I think the los, as successful as it is, and how long it's been around and it's got 60 whatever percent market share has done us a disservice from an innovation perspective. Everything we think about as an industry is how do we fit it into Encompass? How do we. Do we need an API for Encompass?
[00:19:45] Speaker D: Is it on the service tab? You guys have heard this a million times.
[00:19:49] Speaker C: I would challenge us as leaders to say, is that the best way? Is that the best experience for everybody? And so, you know, my answer to that is flatly, no, it's not.
And so to me, it was just worth bringing up. And I think about it every day and looking at other loses and trying.
[00:20:07] Speaker D: To gauge who's out there, who's closest.
[00:20:09] Speaker C: Who'S going to get there, and more importantly, how does it fit in with.
[00:20:12] Speaker D: Our strategic vision of where those tech.
[00:20:13] Speaker C: Stacks should land, who can help you out the most? So, yeah, I mean, it got a pretty good response. I'm still getting private messages about it, because people don't want to go public with it. But I truly believe it's shaped, it's.
[00:20:28] Speaker D: Grounded innovation a little bit in the.
[00:20:30] Speaker C: Industry and it shaped people's thinking about innovation and I don't think that's a.
[00:20:34] Speaker D: Great thing for us as, as a group.
[00:20:36] Speaker B: Well, if that's the case, is there any company that you've seen in this, in their tech stack of origination that you, that you think, you know what if it was, for example, if it was a little bit of this and a little bit of this and then and they just kind of merge and marry each other, this actually would be much better than Encompass.
[00:20:54] Speaker C: Yeah, there's, I mean there's two or three out there right now that are, that are dangerously close that I like very, very much. Yeah. And I've either been on an advisory.
[00:21:03] Speaker D: Panel for one or I'm close to.
[00:21:05] Speaker C: The owner on another and, and you know, we're talking to, it's important to keep in touch. As you guys know it's moving at.
[00:21:12] Speaker D: The speed of light.
[00:21:13] Speaker C: Right. That all the tech and so yeah.
[00:21:15] Speaker D: I do think there are two or.
[00:21:16] Speaker C: Three that are, that are close and, and I believe, and I've, I've said this, probably this is, they're going to.
[00:21:22] Speaker D: Be anything new for anybody.
[00:21:23] Speaker C: But I truly believe that where we sort of miss the boat is the.
[00:21:29] Speaker D: POS is an app taker only basically.
[00:21:33] Speaker C: And, and the CRM is some become some sort of, you know, client warehouse and really CRMs, traditional CRMs are not, not helping them move the needle up front. Most of an originator's life hopefully in my opinion will live in these upfront systems with AI, with a lot of RPA and with a lot of options and how to get the client experience away from hey, you've hopped over the hurdles. You're doing great to you know, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.
And follow up, follow up, follow up, follow up. After closing right in client management, which.
[00:22:14] Speaker D: Should be way more effective than it is today.
[00:22:16] Speaker C: Email is dead.
[00:22:17] Speaker D: It's ridiculous.
[00:22:18] Speaker C: So yeah, I think, I think the LOS that adopts that integration strategy with a great CRM, an AI driven CRM and really pushes the upfront piece.
That's what I look for when I'm constantly checking in with three or four.
[00:22:34] Speaker D: Of my favorites that are in development.
[00:22:35] Speaker C: Does that make sense?
[00:22:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Who wants a system that starts at disclosures?
It's already a cost center at that point. There's no way you can prove it's not. And as great as encompass is, I would argue many of the mid and mid mid majors that have been acquired recently were Encompass users that had trouble getting profitable to the point that they felt they wanted to keep going. So with that said, you've actually acquired a really great company. Follow Eric Wiley forever out there at Pac Resin, but I think he was always doing what felt like some different technology plays than what you were doing. What did you learn a lot by putting both of those tech stacks together? I mean, you got fragmented contracts, you got fragmented fields, and then I think that's really where you learn that Encompass has the ability to very much customize fields and that that probably makes it difficult as well.
[00:23:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, guys, think about it, right?
There is no single instance of Encompass. The second we all get it, we all basically customize the, you know what.
[00:23:52] Speaker D: Out of it until it's unrecognizable to.
[00:23:54] Speaker C: Another lender, which is exactly what happened.
[00:23:56] Speaker D: In our merger act. Right.
[00:23:58] Speaker C: So, so we honestly, during, during those discussions behind the scenes, we made the decision to stay on the GO instance, the legacy GO instance of Encompass. We didn't even really try to integrate anything. The strategy really was get everybody comfortable on the platform, continue business flowing in the door, and then put together strategic teams of collaborators from both sides to take best practices from both and build, you know, rebuild, if necessary, what, what Legacy had on their side.
[00:24:33] Speaker D: Right.
[00:24:33] Speaker C: That was cool. And we were all like, ah, wow, that's phenomenal. Let's bring it over and rebuild it. But to try and literally merge them, it just doesn't, it doesn't make sense. There's too many custom fields, business rules.
[00:24:45] Speaker D: Rpa, there's all kinds of stuff in there.
[00:24:47] Speaker C: It was easier to land them on our platform and then begin the improvement process as a collaborative team, which we got their buy in for and, and God love them, they've done great with it. So that was the Encompass piece of.
[00:25:00] Speaker D: It, the fragmented piece of it.
[00:25:01] Speaker C: I mean, we use Poly, they use ob.
We both had Compensate, we both had Encino, we had some additional, you know, we had Total Expert. They didn't. There was a lot of. To your point, Michael, list them all out. Look at all the fragmented pieces we've got to deal with.
And that sort of, though necessary, that.
[00:25:23] Speaker D: Sort of made my point for me.
[00:25:25] Speaker C: In, I mean, really, do we.
[00:25:27] Speaker D: Is that really the best, most efficient.
[00:25:29] Speaker C: Most cost effective way for an industry like ours to operate? The answer? No, it's not. And so again, ambidexterity, right? The same time we were doing all.
[00:25:40] Speaker D: Of that and the same time we were bringing our Families together and getting.
[00:25:43] Speaker C: Those people on board was the same time we were okay look at a new ls okay. You know, oh my, that CRM looks terrific. Hey, you know what?
[00:25:52] Speaker D: POS is out there integrated, non integrated.
[00:25:54] Speaker C: So we're constantly doing both all day, every day.
[00:25:58] Speaker B: Do you think that there are systematic changes that could start at the top? So example, like if, if say for example the GSEs came out of conservatorship and this and, and now their own, they're their own animals again, they're going to say okay and in this particular administration there may be some room for some elimination of inefficiencies. Just for example sake. Do you think that taking the GSEs out of conservatorship would cause and and creating those efficiencies or whoever could be put into leadership. Additional leadership I should say could cause change and go from top down, thus shaking up the mortgage industry.
[00:26:41] Speaker C: They have to, it's not a nice to have anymore.
[00:26:46] Speaker D: They need to be re privatized.
[00:26:47] Speaker C: They need to be competitors. Today they're not. That's just not the case. We all know it.
They need to worry about a balance sheet.
[00:26:56] Speaker D: They need to run like a business.
[00:26:58] Speaker C: They need to be competitive.
[00:26:59] Speaker D: And more importantly, they can really help drive change in our industry.
[00:27:03] Speaker C: They can today they don't need to, nor are they charged with doing that. So yeah, I would like to see them back.
[00:27:11] Speaker D: They have plenty of money.
[00:27:12] Speaker C: I mean we're well capitalized here in conservatorship and I know the government's got it as a cash cow.
[00:27:19] Speaker D: I think we've paid that bill back a couple times over.
[00:27:23] Speaker C: It's time to get back out on the street and sort of drive. I mean I'm old enough to remember when DU was launched and I was basically a kid flown through Atlanta to see this amazing system that nobody had ever heard of. And I remember thinking to myself this is going to change everything. I mean I had been in the business for like two years and I.
[00:27:43] Speaker D: Already knew this is going to be ridiculous. This is going to change how we do business.
[00:27:48] Speaker C: It's better with them at the front.
[00:27:50] Speaker D: Of the wave than it is sort.
[00:27:52] Speaker C: Of lagging behind just collecting money. So I'm a big proponent of that and I think it would really help the industry. Plus some privatized leadership a little more.
[00:28:01] Speaker D: Nimble, a lot more innovative would be, would be true.
[00:28:03] Speaker C: We haven't seen a lot other than SSB and see a lot out of them lately. Collateral would be nice, but we can hop on another call and talk about that. I do. I think it's time, it's time for.
[00:28:15] Speaker D: The business to get back to normal.
[00:28:16] Speaker C: If that's anywhere near normal.
[00:28:19] Speaker A: If an off the cusp may be difficult question.
So if you privatize them.
[00:28:26] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:28:26] Speaker A: And they started treating each other like UWM and rocket treats, would that be bad for the industry or would that be just a new way of doing business where you had to pick, pick.
[00:28:39] Speaker C: One that's pretty hostile? I mean, that's, that's not a relationship. That's not, that's not a relationship.
[00:28:45] Speaker A: So like, so say, say it gets hostile because one, one. I mean, you see these people on cnbc, they got a lot of ego. Say one big.
They, you know, I'm trying to think of that name. But the, the gentleman who always buys like a bunch of stock so he can kind of take it over in his, his Warren Buffett. That's not the one I'm thinking of. But yeah, Eichman. Is that what it is? Carl. Carl. But yes.
Yeah. Say Icon doesn't like all of a sudden a leadership change over there and says some sort of ultimatum. Do you think that would be the industry would just keep moving on or do you think that would actually be problematic?
[00:29:20] Speaker C: Look, I think. Well, if it got to that level of hostility, it's always going to be problematic. But I still believe, you know, and even before those of us that were.
[00:29:28] Speaker D: In the business before the crash, they're.
[00:29:31] Speaker C: Better when they're friendly competitors than they are when they're just mirroring each other and there's a little bit of a.
[00:29:37] Speaker D: Difference in the rate stack and they're.
[00:29:39] Speaker C: Worrying about the portfolio a little.
They're way more innovative and frankly useful to the industry. When they're a little bit. They're a little, you know, they need to run it like a business without a blank checkbook behind them. And, and so I would hate, yeah.
[00:29:56] Speaker D: I'd hate to see it get that level of hostility.
[00:29:59] Speaker C: But, but truly think about it, right? Where they were really doing they really.
[00:30:02] Speaker D: Innovating was when they were private and.
[00:30:04] Speaker C: They were doing well and they were.
[00:30:06] Speaker D: Injecting tech into it and we really move forward as an industry then.
[00:30:09] Speaker C: So no, I wouldn't want to see.
[00:30:11] Speaker D: It get to that level of hostility.
[00:30:12] Speaker C: But a little bit the lengths between the two of them wouldn't bother me. I'll be all right with that.
[00:30:17] Speaker B: Wow, that reminds me, you know, when Mike and Kelleher mentions Carl, Icon reminds me of the 80s. And is greed good in this particular case? Would greed cause efficiencies in other words, is greed good for the industry to create these inefficiencies with competition and privatization?
[00:30:36] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:30:36] Speaker C: Look, greed is the word has a negative connotation. But when you truly are running a business and you truly are worried about your bottom line, your book, where does your asset, how is it valued on.
[00:30:53] Speaker D: The street and how is it valued in the portfolio? And like I said, you don't have the soft landing.
[00:30:58] Speaker C: Anytime you want it, the pencils get sharpened, the staffing gets right sized, the innovation starts up again because there's a lot of different ways to sort of.
[00:31:10] Speaker D: Cut out a little cost and maintain revenue.
[00:31:12] Speaker C: And I just think we can call it greed. That's one label.
[00:31:16] Speaker D: I truly believe if you're responsible for.
[00:31:18] Speaker C: That and you really are driving the ship and it's not the governor, I'm sorry, the government or like I said.
[00:31:26] Speaker D: This cushion they can land on anytime they want to.
[00:31:28] Speaker C: I think that's just better for them, better for us. I think you're going to see more innovation, more handing out hands out to.
[00:31:36] Speaker D: Collaborate with the industry.
[00:31:38] Speaker C: I think you're going to see much less of the.
[00:31:40] Speaker D: Today it's a dictatorship.
[00:31:41] Speaker C: I mean it's, it's, we all get buybacks from you know, five years ago now. I mean how many auditors do you need at Fannie and Freddie today? So look, it's probably a little controversial and I'll probably get in trouble later but at the end of the day, you know, them being forced to run it as a business and being responsible for that business I think would be better for everybody, including that. So I'm, you know, I'm pretty bullish on that.
[00:32:06] Speaker D: We'll, we'll see how much hate mail.
[00:32:08] Speaker C: I get after the show.
[00:32:09] Speaker A: Well, I think he's saying it very nicely in my opinion. It seems that industry has gotten a lot to almost like a video game. We talk about like where you're just trying to get an accept right like I think loan officer. Our guest last week, Steve, one of the more decorated traders over the last 40 or plus years in our industry made a very eye openening statement that yeah, tough years now are paying for the fact that it was the greatest 40 year trade that he's ever seen in Wall street as far as just rates continuously going down. All right, maybe it was 30 years.
So let's say it's a purchase market. You're out there motivating your troops. You've, you've been in a region like they got to appreciate that.
What has totally changed about let's just focus on purchase business. Say it's purchase business move forward.
What has changed about the purchase business environment with, with, with tech and all this transparency of what everybody's doing for business? And, and how do you, how do you motivate people to get out there and, and capture that market share?
[00:33:16] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, when, when I first got into the business, you know, when the dinosaurs were on the earth, it was.
[00:33:22] Speaker D: It was a holistic look at every loan.
[00:33:24] Speaker C: It was everything you guys remember terms like pay shock and reserves and you know, credit trending. And it was a holistic look at every deal. And to your point, Michael, but it's now how do I get the approve.
[00:33:39] Speaker D: Eligible and the accept?
[00:33:41] Speaker C: And that essentially means that the loan.
[00:33:45] Speaker D: Is broken down into key factors and pieces now. It's not a holistic look at the loan anymore. You're, you're gamifying the system a little bit.
[00:33:52] Speaker C: You're trying to mitigate enough risk that the agencies say, yep, I'll take that one.
[00:33:56] Speaker D: Right.
[00:33:57] Speaker C: And so you've got, when that happens.
[00:33:59] Speaker D: You get two or three things happening at the same time.
[00:34:02] Speaker C: I referenced that band of, of the.
[00:34:05] Speaker D: First level of millennials.
[00:34:06] Speaker C: Now a big chunk of them are.
[00:34:08] Speaker D: Coming into prime home time, home buying time.
[00:34:11] Speaker C: Right.
[00:34:11] Speaker D: In terms of age and income bands as they're, they're coming in. And Gallup was doing a bunch of surveys on them. They trust loan officers at around a.
[00:34:20] Speaker C: 12 to 14% clip as to what's coming out of their mouths today.
A loan officer today is not sitting at the bank branch a trusted advisor, because I bank with XYZ bank and you work for them.
[00:34:36] Speaker D: And so we had this long standing relationship.
[00:34:38] Speaker C: Right? My, my, my money's here, my investments.
[00:34:41] Speaker D: Are here, you're here. That, that's not the game anymore in our industry. There's too much, not too much. There's a lot of informational access when.
[00:34:49] Speaker C: It comes to rates, fees, what it should look like.
[00:34:52] Speaker D: Just go on your wallet for a.
[00:34:53] Speaker C: Minute, just go read all the tutorials.
[00:34:55] Speaker D: And then get read quotes.
[00:34:57] Speaker C: There's, there's no way that, that the old guard that I used to, I.
[00:35:02] Speaker D: Call them the donuts at the realtor's.
[00:35:03] Speaker C: Office is, is going to work coming up in the future and frankly there.
[00:35:07] Speaker D: Aren'T enough there, there aren't going to be enough realtors. So that's the second problem.
[00:35:11] Speaker C: You know, 90% of the business is.
[00:35:12] Speaker D: Being done by 10% of the realtors right now.
[00:35:14] Speaker C: So look, for all of those reasons and all of those factors, you know, I Think salespeople now have to get to not only diversified referral sources, non qm, you know, cpa, attorneys, realtors, you got to get to the borrower, you got to get to the borrower, the borrower's got to be with you before they're looking as they're looking and not leaving you when they find.
And so that, that if you believe in that mindset, and I do, that's a whole different sales strategy.
[00:35:49] Speaker D: That is a completely different animal.
[00:35:50] Speaker C: Now you're talking about social media, AI, text, AI voice, really, really hyper focused on client retention, hyper focus on multiple referral sources and how do you engage.
[00:36:02] Speaker D: With them is very different.
[00:36:03] Speaker C: Hitting a CPA is not the same as going to the realtor's office. There is a lot more, in my opinion, diversification around the sales cycle and the funnel, it's a little, it should be a little bit wider.
And then frankly, I think you and I have talked about this privately a couple times, Michael.
This idea of the green light, red light, stoplight thing that clients experience, forget it. I don't want that. I'm 50 something years old. I don't want that.
You want, I call it immediate gratification. What I mean by that is quick, crisp, accurate answers on time every time and you should be able to get it without this weird.
[00:36:44] Speaker D: I've got to check my personal email.
[00:36:46] Speaker C: To find an update from your CRM that's canned. Like what does that, how does that work? That that's not where a business needs to go. It needs to be pushed front to the CRM and frankly, you know, to.
[00:36:59] Speaker D: The sales teams, they, they need more.
[00:37:01] Speaker C: Tools to make, to get their own answers.
[00:37:04] Speaker D: And I mean, approving loans potentially with.
[00:37:06] Speaker C: AI without the back room being involved in a lot of their deals. And I say that a lot and.
[00:37:13] Speaker D: People sort of lose their mind and.
[00:37:14] Speaker C: Want to talk about it, but I mean it.
AI underwriting, AI document review, monitoring of documents and document changes versus dates happening in the system.
50, 60% of our pipeline is that's.
[00:37:29] Speaker D: Going to be handled at the sales.
[00:37:30] Speaker C: Level, not at the OPS level. And I think a lot of the mistakes we make with tech in the business right now is we're always trying.
[00:37:37] Speaker D: To improve ops, the efficiency of ops. How are we at ops?
[00:37:39] Speaker C: But yeah, that's great. But really you want to get better at ops, push the stuff to the salesperson to get stuff done that is.
[00:37:48] Speaker D: Risk mitigated for a company.
[00:37:50] Speaker C: And I think to me that's where the business is headed.
[00:37:53] Speaker D: It's a whole different sales cycle A whole different salesperson.
[00:37:57] Speaker C: And it's not going to stay this.
[00:37:58] Speaker D: Way much longer in our business.
[00:38:01] Speaker B: I want to create a term because I just thought of it. I'm going to call it tough empathy.
Meaning that right now at the sales, at the sales level and this is kind of at the beginning of time, I'm afraid to cold call because I'm afraid of rejection and. But yet for those who have been in the business for a while and they're not afraid to pick up the telephone to answer the. To answer the telephone, to make the tough call or to make the brand new call.
How does, how do we, how do we teach that at the origination level? Because you said there's a lack of young blood.
So what are some of the characteristics you're looking for to bring in better blood if you're going to be. If you want better, want to see a leadership, how do you bring it in sales?
[00:38:41] Speaker C: I could teach you mortgage and the.
[00:38:43] Speaker D: Tech can help you do mortgage.
[00:38:45] Speaker C: I need younger sales folks who understand the value of that.
[00:38:50] Speaker D: Right.
[00:38:50] Speaker C: Their personality lends itself to not only the cold call, but it to me.
[00:38:56] Speaker D: And this is hard, right.
[00:38:57] Speaker C: We, we all have established loan officers and I love them dearly. We are as an industry missing the boat on social media. We are completely blowing it.
[00:39:06] Speaker D: We don't understand that it is a.
[00:39:08] Speaker C: Way to generate leads, brand recognition, volume. We have some originators, very few. We, we have some originators that like.
[00:39:15] Speaker D: 30% of their business comes from Social.
[00:39:17] Speaker C: That's amazing. They're top producers and they get a bunch out of groups and other things.
[00:39:22] Speaker D: That they're doing on Social.
[00:39:24] Speaker C: We're missing the vote on as an industry on. On AI is overwhelming everybody at this point. And, and instead of sort of embracing it in tactical ways that really could.
[00:39:35] Speaker D: Move the needle, particularly in the CRM space which, which drives me nuts.
[00:39:41] Speaker C: It.
I got to tell you, Michael, you.
[00:39:44] Speaker D: Cold call me today.
[00:39:47] Speaker C: I don't know if I don't know how far you're gonna get. I get a lot of cold calls from vendors. I don't know how far you're gonna get. You are way more likely to get.
[00:39:55] Speaker D: Something out of me even in the.
[00:39:56] Speaker C: Long term via a really good AI text campaign backed up by some short video, right. That's highlighting your product or certain. Like those are quick hits that I can do. I'm no different than a borrower, right. If I can do it on my way to the car, walking out of this office, hey, that was pretty cool. Maybe I'll call. You know, I'LL check.
[00:40:16] Speaker D: I'll call Michael Kelleher tomorrow.
[00:40:17] Speaker C: That was pretty cool.
[00:40:18] Speaker D: That's better than a cold call anymore. I mean, way better.
[00:40:21] Speaker C: And so we're missing the boat. We're missing the boat up front with not only how to drive activity, which is the key to volume, but then secondarily, how do we keep the momentum?
[00:40:32] Speaker D: We don't have the tools that help.
[00:40:33] Speaker C: Keep the momentum up while we're doing that. And so again, for me, you want to. It's the, it's the assessment whether you want a PI test or whatever you're.
[00:40:45] Speaker D: Doing to assess candidates.
[00:40:47] Speaker C: Give me the right talent, I'll teach the mortgage.
I mean, hell, AI underwriting will work them along and what they need to go get right.
[00:40:56] Speaker D: I can do.
[00:40:56] Speaker C: We can do that from an AI perspective. Ask for this. Get this, get this. You know, we can have pods of loas that can help.
[00:41:04] Speaker D: There's many ways to help. New blood coming in.
But getting them excited about how to.
[00:41:09] Speaker C: Generate activity and applications and volume and referrals, that's.
I mean, to me, that's, that's the business now.
[00:41:16] Speaker D: The, the mortgage expertise. This idea again that Andrew is a.
[00:41:21] Speaker C: Trusted advisor and I have to, you know, I'm going to massage a portfolio.
[00:41:25] Speaker D: Loan like we did in 1995. Forget it. That's not it.
[00:41:29] Speaker C: And so, so to me, like I said, it's.
[00:41:31] Speaker D: The business is shifting under our feet.
[00:41:32] Speaker C: This way and we've got to find a way to adapt to it.
[00:41:35] Speaker A: Yeah, you, you nailed it.
The social media is the greatest free platform ever created. There's not even enough of them. Sorry. Like, there's so many of them. It would take up all of your day to stay up on it. But we keep. You have to win this. It's like such an opportunity now to win the zip code. The old guard is discouraged by lack of volume.
More people are looking at that omnichannel approach locally.
[00:42:05] Speaker D: Right.
[00:42:06] Speaker A: Like that cool person is, is out there getting wins at the country club, at the food pantry showcase that showcase your knowledge. I wouldn't go with the gimmick stuff. I would be just. I think people try to win too much win because no one's going to be picking up the phone once that iOS comes out in two months. That's actually going to have a built in, built in AI secretary. So it's not even like the spam filter. Now even your own mom is going to have to say, I'm mom. Oh, if, if it's not a contact in your phone, she's in my Contacts for the.
[00:42:44] Speaker C: Michael. Good, Good job with mom. Look, you're, you're, you're a thousand percent, right? And, and the part that is interesting to me is we're on LinkedIn, right? We're all got it.
[00:42:55] Speaker D: We have, we have a service that.
[00:42:56] Speaker C: Puts out content on my behalf, right. And they get it.
[00:42:59] Speaker D: They get X amount of impressions. The second I do some dumb video.
[00:43:03] Speaker C: Of me walk into my car talking about anything or I post about my, you know, I did a post about my kid a few months back. Yeah, I get about four times the impressions and interactions. Right.
I don't get it. Like, you're a loan officer, you're missing the boat.
And that's just LinkedIn.
[00:43:22] Speaker D: Never mind if you're doing the right.
[00:43:24] Speaker C: Thing in every other platform across, you.
[00:43:26] Speaker D: Know, your zip code, to your point.
[00:43:28] Speaker C: Like it's, you're completely missing the boat. People want to know you. They want to know what you know, they want to know who you are. And they're going to do business with who they like and trust. And that is the easiest way to touch everybody in your immediate market. And as an industry, this isn't just, you know, I'm not picking on any one of our originators. As an industry, we're just missing the vote completely.
And that's the younger crowd. We need to get those folks that aren't afraid of that and frankly want that and then can learn.
[00:43:55] Speaker D: Mortgage after.
[00:43:57] Speaker B: Wow. We haven't seen, I mean, we, of course we saw covet go through, but that, that was a, that was a black swan event. But like, we haven't. It's been 15, it's been 17 years since the, the financial crisis. And then before that it was just only 10 years. And then before that, you know, it was another 10 years, right? The SNL crisis. Then we had the financial crisis. And then before that it was 1987, it was just, it was just one. And then we had inflation. It was like every 10 years. And so are we due for another correction so that the consumer can get educated by some financial catastrophe? Because there isn't, there's nothing on in the mortgage industry right now. But, you know, it seems to me like we're due for something. And, and it might be at the.
[00:44:44] Speaker C: Sales level, it will be at the sales level, but it's artificially created. Right? We, Quantitative easing was not a market. There wasn't a cycle in the market. It was us artificially dropping rates to levels that they would not have gone to without easing.
[00:45:01] Speaker D: Right.
[00:45:02] Speaker C: And so I, I tell a lot of My colleagues, we're paying the bill for that really expensive meal that we ate during COVID And so there ha to your point, like there has to be a correction.
[00:45:16] Speaker D: You can't have. The market would never dictate by itself.
[00:45:21] Speaker C: Low rates, amazingly high prices and then not do this to correct and instead we're seeing them go up and down.
[00:45:30] Speaker D: Together a little bit.
There's going to be a correction and.
[00:45:34] Speaker C: Unfortunately I think what's happening is we're.
[00:45:37] Speaker D: Going to get some discouraged folks.
[00:45:38] Speaker C: We're going to get some folks either.
[00:45:39] Speaker D: Through M and A or just leaving the business at my age.
[00:45:42] Speaker C: We're going to lose some salespeople out of this.
[00:45:45] Speaker D: And with the servicers really leaning into.
[00:45:48] Speaker C: Portfolio retention data trigger, they're going to have trigger advantage.
[00:45:53] Speaker D: This idea of a massive wave of.
[00:45:56] Speaker C: Refis coming I don't believe is for.
[00:45:59] Speaker D: An IMB mid or mid major.
[00:46:01] Speaker C: You're going to look, you're going to pick up some business loyal customers. I get all that. None of us have 500 person consumer.
[00:46:07] Speaker D: Direct channels propped up anymore.
[00:46:10] Speaker C: You're not going to get bailed out.
[00:46:11] Speaker D: By a refi wave.
[00:46:13] Speaker C: An amazing wave of money through the refi business. And so to your point, it's going.
[00:46:20] Speaker D: To be the strong surviving here in sales.
[00:46:22] Speaker C: And so how do you reload it? How do you grow the next generation of successful salespeople?
Again, it's not the coffee and donuts method. It's just not.
You're going to have to develop within the organization a strategy for taking the right type of person who loves sales and personality tests out that way and get them engaged in all the things we just talked about and then get tech in there with them that as they're learning the business is supporting them. AI underwrite rpa, student disclosures. Not that. Right.
[00:46:56] Speaker D: All kinds of things that help them.
[00:46:59] Speaker C: Learn but also keep their business flowing so they feel some success and they get, they fall in love with the business.
[00:47:05] Speaker D: And until we do, until we make.
[00:47:07] Speaker C: The decision to do that and stop doing what we've always done forever.
[00:47:10] Speaker D: Because the next wave is coming.
[00:47:13] Speaker C: It'll be in this weird stagnant space. There's not enough I at my house today is a sub 3% rate.
Am I ever going to sell it?
Not without some sort of need for liquidity or some sort of catastrophic event within my life.
[00:47:32] Speaker D: Right.
[00:47:33] Speaker C: Why it's free money.
And so we created that problem artificially.
[00:47:40] Speaker D: That wasn't an organic capital markets problem.
[00:47:44] Speaker C: That we did that. And so we can talk about the inventory and that's all you want. We're not going to be able to catch up in construction that fast.
And so there just isn't as big a pie to go out and get and people are going to get discouraged.
[00:47:57] Speaker D: And leave the business.
[00:47:57] Speaker C: And that's what typically happens unless we.
[00:48:00] Speaker D: Step in and incentivize and do all.
[00:48:02] Speaker C: The stuff that, you know, Washington's talking about today. So, so truly, to answer your question more directly, we've got to start thinking about how do you recruit instead of.
[00:48:12] Speaker D: Throwing money at me.
[00:48:14] Speaker C: How do we take really bright kids and I say kids, you know what I mean? Really bright young people who really have.
[00:48:22] Speaker D: Have a pension for sales and social.
[00:48:24] Speaker C: Media and really getting themselves out there and branding themselves and how do we turn them right? How do we get them in a, in a soft environment where they can.
[00:48:32] Speaker D: Be trained and the tech can support.
[00:48:34] Speaker C: Them and have them fall in love.
[00:48:35] Speaker D: With this business because it's still the greatest business in the world.
[00:48:38] Speaker C: So that to me, that's our next challenge from sales and from an industry perspective.
[00:48:44] Speaker A: The industry right now is competing, as you said earlier on, better manufacturing. Like we could do the disclosure. We automated disclosures for three days down to one when.
But as someone looking for the next this young person coming in, they probably don't even know enough to, to know the difference there.
What really should be looking at right now is people retiring, people getting discouraged, moving out. More zip codes are up for grabs than ever before. Become the number one lender.
What do you look for? I guess this will be the final question, but what do you look for when you're out there interviewing future go mortgage loan officers? Or what would you say to people that are spending time, you know, at the, the Ohio Mortgage Bankers association, the type of people that you would want come work for you at any message on jumping on board 100%.
[00:49:42] Speaker C: Look, we spend a lot of time reviewing how we interview and I don't.
[00:49:49] Speaker D: Mean interview, sit down in the chair.
[00:49:51] Speaker C: Across from each other more about how do we ask and have a discussion about the right things that glean us.
[00:50:00] Speaker D: This could be a candidate, a younger.
[00:50:02] Speaker C: Person who's a candidate.
And we have a pretty robust predictive index assessment.
Five to seven minutes that they take that is typically spot on.
[00:50:12] Speaker D: And we have so many of those now, right. We sort of have this cone of.
[00:50:16] Speaker C: Success in the grid and if you.
[00:50:18] Speaker D: Sort of fall in there, we have.
[00:50:20] Speaker C: Had the experience that that person has a shot, really has a good chance at it. And we've had some of the. I swear to you, we recruited a Young man at a restaurant.
He was a server and he was spectacular and he upsold the hell out of a table and he was, I've, I've searched him on social. He's everywhere, pimping the restaurant. It's one of our best sellers.
And so, so when I tell you that like we, we truly are looking for the person, I'm not even worried about. Do you know what LTV is right now? I don't. Yeah. Okay, well, no big deal. We'll figure it out, right? And if they're a hard worker and I know from personal experience, having been in the business 30 years now, you.
[00:51:04] Speaker D: Catch the bug, you get bitten by.
[00:51:06] Speaker C: This thing and nobody ever leaves.
This is, this is a great business. And if you're tech hip and you love branding yourself and you love being out there a little bit, you love going to events and, and you love talking to Mike Hiller. Mike, you're, you are, you can surround yourself with enough help, whether it's corporate tech or just self help where you could figure it out, man.
[00:51:30] Speaker D: We are not a holistic judgmental business anymore.
[00:51:33] Speaker C: We are a yes no business with the AUS from the agency. So, so Mike, to answer your question more directly, I really do think now more than ever it's, can you identify, can you hit on enough people that you hire that make it through and become successful versus I'm going to go get somebody who's been in the business.
[00:51:54] Speaker D: 15 years and I got to pay.
[00:51:55] Speaker C: Him a big check to get here. And they've always done it a certain way that's been successful and we know.
[00:52:00] Speaker D: What their ceiling is.
[00:52:01] Speaker C: I would rather personally invest in our.
[00:52:04] Speaker D: People, have them do more business.
[00:52:06] Speaker C: They go hire 10 people on either side to come in and do a little bit of business each. I would rather invest in our people, teach them more about social, get them more, you know, younger folks, getting them more excited about branding and all the boats rise at the same time versus.
[00:52:23] Speaker D: Just trying to grab market share and cutting big checks and worrying about turnover.
[00:52:26] Speaker C: And things like that. So I feel really passionately about how the business is evolving and how much we have to go with it. We have to get with it right now.
And so, you know, until we figure that out as an industry, we're just going to have retreads and we're going to lose people from this thing and.
[00:52:45] Speaker D: That'S not good for us as a business.
[00:52:47] Speaker B: Okay, I want to ask, I have one last question here real quick. I wasn't going to ask it, but I was going to go for it so when, when Apple brought in Scully, they brought in the Pepsi leader in order to lead Apple because they needed someone with fresh blood, not that extra no experience in technology.
And as, and then, and in the, and as the movie job says, you bring in someone selling sugary, sugary water to go sell technology.
Does that need to happen in the mortgage industry? Someone from a different industry to take on leadership to make a change?
[00:53:16] Speaker C: Yeah, maybe not at the top top.
[00:53:18] Speaker D: Maybe we are, we're still a compliance regulatory nightmare, right?
[00:53:21] Speaker C: As a business, maybe not top top. But I'll tell you what, and I'm not going to spill too much of the beans, I mean we've, yeah, yeah, 100%.
Look guys, if I need, if I hire a whole bunch of me's, I don't get any different perspective other than my own. And so to me, particularly from the fintech space, particularly from the consulting space.
[00:53:45] Speaker D: Particularly from marketing outside of mortgage, because.
[00:53:48] Speaker C: We are not good marketers, guys. We are not good marketers in the space.
Mike, to your point, it is critical, it's not a nice to have. It's critical to bring in expertise and.
[00:54:00] Speaker D: Voices who look at what we do.
[00:54:01] Speaker C: Sometimes and say guys, what are you doing?
That doesn't work And I love that I there. If, if I or you or anybody.
[00:54:11] Speaker D: Else are the smartest guys in the.
[00:54:12] Speaker C: Room, we have a problem, right? I might be one of the smartest mortgage guys in the room but particularly on the fintech side, like I said, consulting, marketing, compliance, process flow folks, they, they bring a whole different perspective that.
[00:54:28] Speaker D: Helps reinvigorate you or me in this case, right.
[00:54:31] Speaker C: To think about it a different way and it can't be more valuable. Like it just can't be. So to me you're spot on. It is important that we don't get lost in the swamp of. We've always done it this way, right. I've no mortgage for 30 years. How dare you tell me that doesn't work. It does, it works. And yeah, I think, I mean you've seen it now, you guys have seen it out in the marketplace. We're, we're starting to pick off people from fintech and other places to come in and give a fresh look at what we're doing. And a good leader I think moving forward in our business has to do that. Absolutely has to do that. So I'm a big fan, Big, big fan.
[00:55:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Because if they keep doing what you've always done, you're gonna get what you've always got.
Thank you Andrew for coming on the show and two great reminders. One, that this industry does have a bug about it, where people stay in this industry, they love it. And so that's why it's so important that our audience becomes broader and broader so that they could see these leaders and understand why they should get in. Also, fintech, prop tech, lot of opportunity in mortgage. Hopefully our podcast helps bring to light that people would love to hear some of your opinions.
[00:55:44] Speaker E: Thank you for joining us on this journey into the heart of mortgage innovation.
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Until next time, keep pushing the boundaries and uncovering the stories that drive our industry forward.
