Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome, everybody, to another episode of mic dub show season three. For all those listening on Spotify, Amazon, Apple Music, Google, where, wherever you listen, we appreciate if you give us a like, if you give us a comment, we'll certainly throw something out to you, but we're trying to be different. This is our 75th episode. So who Rod? 75 straight weeks of doing this, and we do it live at 02:00 p.m. eastern.
[00:00:28] Speaker B: And of course, 11:00 a.m. pacific in sunny San Diego. Also, we're on YouTube as well, by the way, where you can also make comments.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: Yeah, and that's, and we do this so that you can make comments so that you are able to actually interact with our guests. And we hope at some point in the future that becomes a common place. But instead, we've had some really great intimate conversations. And this is what, you know, what we would consider a mecca for many reasons. One, his resume speaks for itself, too. I've been going to about 150 conferences, and it would start with walking past Bill and then getting comfortable saying hello to Bill and getting too comfortable and saying too many hellos to Bill. And then it kind of looped back, and now we're back again to where it is fun to run into your bill. So maybe if you just want to give a quick background of who you are, Pacific mortgage and a little bit about the NBA scene, in your opinion, and how it's sort of changed over the years, would somebody like me be able to run into in the past and how it forged our relationship here today?
[00:01:35] Speaker C: Well, thank you, Mike and Michael. It's an honor to be on your show.
And it is funny.
Our relationship has come full circle, Mike, and I think you should be a poster child for all salespeople.
There was a time, probably a year ago, you sent me a private message on LinkedIn. For whatever reason, I don't remember, it triggered me.
I called you every name in the book.
And then like three months later, I saw you at a conference and you're like, can I buy you a drink? You just your dog with a bone, man. And I appreciate you.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: Also in Nashville, too.
I remember running into you like five years ago, and you were like, Bill Burr, you were just on fire with your jokes, but you had like four people that worked for you behind you. And you were like, what are you going to sell today, Mike? And like, you just zing me, zang me. And they all laughed. And it was an all I could do was laugh. But if you are a salesperson, you only get you know, if you got a shot in front of, you know, you got to take those shots sometimes.
[00:02:47] Speaker C: Shoot or shoot.
And, you know, I know you're a Boston Celtics fan, so you appreciate that. So I am the chairman of American Pacific Mortgage.
American Pacific Mortgage is a retail mortgage bank. We've been in business since 1997.
We are an employee owned company. We're an ESOP. We're the largest employee owned mortgage company in America. And that is something that we are really proud of. And I view it as our cultural crowning achievement. We can talk more about that later. We're licensed in 49 states, trying to get licensed in New York. New York is the hardest to get licensed in. And I went to college in New York. I think I did some shit back in 1982 that's preventing us from getting a license in a timely manner. But thats a story for a different day. So we have about 300 branches.
Our volume guys peaked in 2021 like everyone elses, at about $24 billion, and were settling in now in a more normal environment at around $12 billion. So thats a little bit about the company.
I know Mikey asked me about NBA, and look, it's something that my involvement, I kind of evolved over time.
I was a person that for a while, I just kind of pitched about all the regulatory exchanges that we were going through as an industry, going back to Dodd Frank and different other regulatory changes. And it got to the point where I said, rather than complain, I need to help shape. And that as American Pacific mortgage got bigger, I felt the company's voice and my voice got bigger. And so starting probably, I don't know, 2015 or 16, I became highly involved in the NBA and on the board, on rezbog and on the board of our state association. And I took that role seriously. And the speak that I have and the point of view that I have, and I wanted to use it in a positive way.
[00:05:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And Mike's a huge proponent of the NBA, and I give him my insight as I am very proud that I'm a board member of the Massachusetts Mortgage Bankers association because I think outside of the regulatory agencies or the, uh, mortgage assurance, I'm the only vendor, you know, originally that they'd ever let in. And they did it because I went to, at the time, probably seven straight, uh, regulatory conferences. So, you know, showed up, and you're always there, Bill, at that big California state.
And I think, you know what I. So I had this passion of noticing there's a large presence of people with gratitude, giving back, you know, that have been successful like you and Gene and others.
And then whats the balance of at these conferences and everything, getting the numbers, the new people, the people that are not top 300 on HMDA, should it somehow click earlier for people that if youre going to make a career out of this, youve got to get in early and often because thats how powerful DC can be. Overdose anything they want to be?
[00:06:23] Speaker C: You know, I, yes, to answer your question, and I think that, you know, okay, if you're, like you said, outside the top 300 or outside the top lenders, it's almost like guys you could punch above your weight with your involvement, like you, and you can use your voice and you can use social media and you can use the things, you know, like what you're doing today. You know, you give a lot of people a voice. And that's why when you guys asked me to participate, I was so eager to do it because you give a lot of people voices. And I think if you are involved, you can not only shape, you can not only be knowledgeable about what's affecting your company, your families, your employees, you owe that to your organization.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: Also think it gives you a good purview of the national scene. So what fascinates me and what I want to get into a little bit about here is you seem to have built a mortgage company the right way. It has that culture and family like feel.
But as you said, it's like 300 branches across the country. And as the rates turn, I've been hearing certain people say, oh, I think I'm going to enter the industry, start, you know, maybe if I was a mortgage company. It clearly isn't easy as it's, you know, it sounds. But I guess my questions are at the milestones of, you know, what got you to 50 million isn't going to get you to 100. Then you're going to need a team to get to 200. And what gets you to a billion to five or just geographically.
I find that all fascinating. Do you have any insight on kind of like that Joe Crocker song? Wish I knew, you know, what I knew when I was younger, but I, what advice would you give to some bravado entrepreneur that thinks they can take over the industry right away?
[00:08:16] Speaker C: Well, that's a great question, and it's kind of funny. You said about doing it the right way.
Me and I have three sons. That's something that we say to each other all the time, do it the right way, play the game the right way. The Buffalo Bills, my team, they play the game the right way to go back to your question, and it almost seems cliche ish, but it is having that team. It's having you get to a certain point.
When I was CEO, and for a long time, it was Kurt and I. And then 1012 years ago, we hired our current CEO, Ned Payon, and we hired just at all the key positions, which, you know, allowed us to, because, you know, one or two people can't do it. And if you're comfortable enough to hire people better than you. Hire people better than you. And that's what we did.
[00:09:15] Speaker A: Yeah. And I sort of talked about it in that when I was sending you some show notes. I do think that good to great book is a great example of, you know, your level five leadership. But that's an example right there where it's, it's more get the who then the what? You get the right people on the bus. If you have to pivot, you know, they will work their tail off and entrust your pivot. They came for each other. They didn't come for the what. Like, let's, you know, and I think we certainly are in a world, or the mortgage industry has one of pivots in cycles. So I'll let Mike ask a question, but to tee it up, what do you think of this cycle coming off? Uh, what everybody just went through, um, and at least some optimism.
[00:10:03] Speaker C: Mike, before I get onto that, you, you triggered something, um, that I wanted to share. And you mentioned, um, you know, the good, the great book, which is, you know, a great book. I'll tell you, you know, as you build a team, something that I learned from a Patrick Lencioni book. And it is a. It is how I approach every interview that I've ever done since I read this book about twelve years ago. I ask a question and my question is, tell me about your greatest accomplishment in your career. To be honest with you, I give a shit about what their accomplishment is. I have a notepad and I listen to how many times they say we and how many times they say I. And if they are saying I way more than we, they don't value the team. They probably don't work well within the team, and I don't want them on my team. If you're an I person, I don't want you. So you ever want a tip on an interview, ask that question and then count how many times they say I and wait.
[00:11:10] Speaker B: That's interesting that you, that you say that, Bill, someone asked me and it wasn't, it was kind of an interview. It was more of a getting to know each other meeting. And the question they asked me is, tell me about your biggest failure, and what would you change about that failure? My answer to them at that point was, it's like, well, I have a lot of failures in my life, but I don't regret any of them because it's those failures that caused me to be placed to where I'm at today. And without those failures, I wouldn't be able to grow. And I think that when we're talking about teamwork, you know, as the interest rates begin to drop, the recruiters are going to be hot on the trail on recruiting and talking about, you know, value propositions and so on and so forth. But I think it's lost on the originator that it's the whatever retail company that they decide to work with. They're actually the retail company is working for, for the originator, not necessarily the other way around, because the teamwork that, that really brings everything together.
This last few years, we've seen a lot of challenges in the interest rate and the inventory environment, but the originators that have been able to persevere are the ones that really work together with their lender partners. And I don't know if the originators are asking the right questions. So, Bill, you mentioned, you know, what are the right questions that you want to be asking, or what are some of the right answers?
What do you think the originator should be asking so that they can be not only more productive for themselves but to the retail ops? Because the retail ops want to really be able to fund those mortgage loans. What can retail originators ask more of to ops so they can be more efficient in how you've been able to lead American Pacific?
[00:13:05] Speaker C: Boy, there's a lot of lot to unpack there, Michael, with that. And I think, you know, you know, the, the one thing, look, I think they need to, an originator, you know, the ones that you're trying to recruit need to figure out or the people that we have that we, you know, we fight hard to retain them. I think a lot of it starts with leadership, transparency. Look, we've been through highs, lows, and everything in between. But as a leader, dont hide, put yourself out there. Be communicative, be transparent, and let them know exactly what youre doing and why youre doing it. I think sometimes leaders are afraid of sharing bad news, and its like, look, these people deserve to hear it. Theyre trying to support their families, just like you are and I am, and they deserve to hear it. So I think thats one big thing. I also think a originator should, should do their homework and try to find out through industry sources what the company's reputation is.
I would welcome any branch and I do this, that we're recruiting. I'm like, hey, I want you to call this person at Fannie Mae or that person at Freddie Mac or an investor. They can't choose me over someone else. So don't ask them who's better, just ask them do we play the game the right way?
And what our reputation is, I think that's so important, especially as we go through the last couple of years, we've all had to fight our tails off to survive, right? And so you want to be with the right company that has the right counterparties and the right partnerships. And that is way more important than, you know, twelve and a half basis points in pricing.
[00:14:59] Speaker B: In football, you know, we have every down, every, every series, every quarter, every half and every game in the last few years. I would call this a quarter because, you know, we've seen this, we've seen a lot of challenges in the space. And in referencing the book good to great, one of the principles they talk about is if, if you're doing something that you love but you're not making money, it's just a hobby. And for some football players, right, if they only play, if they're only playing a quarter, but they don't finish the game and they have the ability to finish the game, then, you know, they, you know, they're not playing for the team, they're just playing for the hobby. What do you think that as a leader, some of the leaders should be looking at to play the right gain in leadership so that they can lead their current independent mortgage banker from where it's currently at to winning their game for their company. What is an attribute. I love that you said that the leaders need to be confident in being able to share bad news. What is another attribute that you think that a leader could have?
[00:16:10] Speaker C: Boy, that, you know, again, you guys ask great questions with a lot to unpack, but let's start with the good ones playing in pain. I got Covid, but I'm showing up right, so the good ones play through pain. But, you know, I think it's, you need to be, you know, kind of purpose driven or, you know, I think as a leader and it really is being a servant. We have an old saying at American Pacific mortgage and that is turn the chart upside down. And what does that mean? That means, you know, I'm the chairman, I'm at the bottom and who's at the top of the chart, you know, our loan officers and loan processors. So whatever hierarchy you might see in a company that's maybe not in the mortgage business, you turn it upside down. And I think that's huge.
[00:17:03] Speaker A: I think another way to ask that question that Mike asked. Just the analogy part of me. Remember when the Patriots played the bills in that snowstorm, and they barely ran the ball, right, and the bills then came back and beat the snot out of him in the playoffs? Like, if you judged yourself just in that snowstorm, which is probably the last two years. Right.
And you changed your. Your idea, then when it, you know, as you proceeded further into your career or the playoffs, where it mattered, you might have missed out on winning that game that the bills.
[00:17:41] Speaker C: Yeah. So, when you think back in your careers, in my career, there's always plays you want back, right? It's like, oh, I left that out on the field. And you got to be humble enough to recognize that so you can pivot. And there's a lot of things that we have done that was different than maybe how we initially launched our company. And I, you know, I think I just be humble enough to recognize that you left a couple of plays on a field, and you need them back.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: So you're larger than life and something people would rally around. And the way you present yourself, your success, I think Kurt, too, with the warrior, he's out there, and somebody you want to follow because you believe you'll make money. Ned, that has this presence of a president as you start to expand geography wise, like, and, you know, I look in the gap here in New England of IMB owners that are here, so you have a lot of transplanted, um, and we'll even say in my world, as the world's become more digital, so that somebody could, you know, behind the scenes, maybe I don't even know how these mortgage worlds work because I haven't worked for one of those larger companies. Maybe they got it all down in the teams and the zooms that we never see. But now that we're getting into a world where more people are on Instagram and have to make videos, is that difficult on, like, who replicates you as you expand out without choosing one over another? Or is it. Are they all regional, like, schools of fish? Like, what. What is that landscape you see today where the loan officer is kind of. It's like the NBA. They seem to be making more calls than they did in the past into contracts.
[00:19:19] Speaker C: Mike. That's kind of almost what what you've said or asked or framed up is the, I think it's the existential question for retail mortgage bankers.
Who is going to figure out how to be efficient, how to get to that customer first? Because it's all changing now. We used to get to the customer through a real estate agent. That business model has been turned upside down.
It's how you figure out, I think, the balance of efficient technology and being that face in your community, being still getting face to face with the borrowers that want to be face to face or the biggest purchase theyll ever make in their life. But you got to leverage technology to get to them first. You got to leverage technology to more efficiently put the loan through the manufacturing process.
I'm not sure. I think we're all still trying to figure that out. And I'm 63 years old and way closer to the end of my career than the beginning of my career. But this is what we charge the current leaders at American Pacific mortgage to figure out. And you may not have the answer today, but you need to come up with the answer soon.
[00:20:41] Speaker B: Well, when you say that, Bill, the three words that come to mind still in sales, it's always the same, know, like and trust.
And when you say that, I mean, to me, it doesn't really matter what type of technology is out there. You need someone.
Well, the industry needs the originator to be, to be knowable, to be likable, and to be trustworthy. And I think that when it comes to the consumer, yeah, they're good. You know, every consumer, they're going to shop you for rate, they're going to shop you for fees. However, the ones that the customers or potential borrowers that really are going to be able to really want to do business, not just for the one transaction, but for future transactions, is still to know someone, to like someone, and to trust someone. AI can't replace that. And I think that one of the things I appreciate about what you're saying, Bill, is that for everything that we need to do, all actions by leadership, whether they're turning the chart upside down, whether they're doing business, they're all actionable consequences. It's not like, tell AI to do business the right way. Tell AI to turn the business upside down. No, it's do this, do this, and then, and through the actions, bring around the trust, the likeability and the knowing of the, of the originator or, uh, or the, or the branch manager. How do you think that leadership can bring about that vision? I'm not talking about company leadership, but maybe from either the California NBA or the national NBA, because there's a lot of lost by using AI. Do you think that the leadership of the NBA collectively with all the IMB leaders can do a better job of speaking that to the originators to get out there and do things and not rely necessarily on social media and AI, but actually get out into the trenches?
[00:22:39] Speaker C: I definitely do. And there are so many, there's so many reasons to do that, or so many that it has an impact on our industry. And I think, you know, when I, when I think of NBA, I think about, okay, how do we make the industry better, not just my company better. And one of the things where I think that technology and AI needs to be leveraged more isn't necessarily on making your process cheaper, better, faster and making your pricing better. It's the quality of loans that we deliver on the secondary market as well. And I think it's well known that both Danny and Freddie are pushing loans back and we're all being faced with repurchases. And while I might not like it, they're not wrong.
When you look at the loan it's like, yeah, that has a deep.
I understand why it's getting pushed back. So how do we still have the human element but use technology to replicate processes to deliver loans more higher quality loans? So the benefit of that pushes all the way down to not just loan officers but consumers. Lets not forget past the loan officer. Although we all work hard to turn the chart upside down and to make them happy, its the people that were putting in homes that are the ultimate consumer that we need to do it the right way.
[00:24:10] Speaker A: I'll give you a chance to catch your voice there. You've done a lot of talking as I see. So people think I'm a disruptor and I am. But I've always said, and I was at this real edge conference, I said I don't think the loan officer is going anywhere because people buy from people and I don't think the IMB is going anywhere. I just think we're in a moment in time right now where the GSE loans are getting very commoditized and were adjusting to the technology of the ppes. You guys know the names but that was like the realtors giving all their data to the MLS that then gave it to zillow. The lenders made a choice at some point for efficiencies to give all of their guidelines to these ppes. So we're just adjusting. But I think at the end of the day you're going to have right now you have some of the best salespeople in every zip code that understand people and have the ability to offer them advice on something that's not taught in high school, not taught in college. And I actually think it's in the industry's best interest to teach what to do when you get a home and how to preserve it and how to, you know, you talk about it a lot. Michael Zhao about like budgeting and balancing. To actually teach them about the mortgage itself would be a recipe for disruption because people go to chat GPT for things they understand. They don't understand a thing about mortgage, so they go to their loan officer because people buy from people. But my point about imbs and strong ones like America Pacific mortgages, I think it'll swing back to who can make better products. And better products really revolve around risk and the reputation of delivery and the knowledge base of investors. And I think that's where Bill, American Pacific mortgage and some of the other larger names don't get enough credit on these, like who is betters out there and all that rhetoric. I think the firm establishments led by leaders that are actively not only advocating and Washington, but motivating their people to have a uniform message that works in those communities and then go to New York and be able to get new products so people can get into homes, uh, especially with affordability problems coming. I see that being the solution. And that's why we, I was excited to have you on Bill, because, you know, you're that guy. And I, and I think it's very, I think that was the first half of our show here. I think it's going to be hard for people to rebuild what you and a couple of the others have built. I don't, I haven't seen too many Bill Dallas talked about it on our show, like Victor from guaranteed rate, who was another one, Chris George, they were all brokers like right around zero four, and now they're all top twenties. So where does that next one come from? I'm sure it does come, but it's proven that it's not that easy because I haven't seen one really do that recently.
[00:27:09] Speaker C: Look, we're making a pretty big bet as an organization and others as well on the loan officer. We believe that that is part of the future. And I am skeptical of business models and they're starting to come out and how successful they will be in a purchase market without that loan officer sitting across the kitchen table.
They can be successful in a repi market.
Anybody can I guess.
But it's how you do in a purchase market, along with the headwinds of inventory and affordability.
I believe, we believe as an organization, it is our loan officers that we built our company around.
[00:27:55] Speaker A: And I have some disconnects with the industry as I'm talking to, I like to think I talk to as many lenders as anybody because I'm just grinding. And on that call, the one that drives me nuts, Bill, I'll tell you, obviously they all disagree with me, is I think the point of sale is one of the worst things to happen to the industry. I know it's efficient, but I have a client on my consultancy, silverwork solutions that did a secret shopper for the top 20 lenders and filled it out. And every single one, I won't tell you the speed that they got back. It would surprise you how slow everybody that says they were right away. I'm not knocking that. I'm knocking every single loan officer call back and went back through the entire point of sale that the consumer took 45 minutes of their own time to fill out, not one set. And I do think this is where technology is going to get better. Loan officers will know more what to say, but I think the industry is too reliant on that and not just get like the fact I always say this and obviously I'm a little biased with easy mortgage apps, but encompass websites used to have a short, short app and a long app and all the loan officers would always do the short app and then make the call and fill out the rest of the 1003. No one ever made the short point of sale. It just became extinct. And I think it did a little bit of detriment. I hope it gets back to loan officers, find a way to at least have a conversation to fill out some portion of it and convince consumers that it is worth their time and a better use of their time than filling out their own app. But I do get from a data world why there's a lot of pushback on that.
[00:29:32] Speaker C: Look, I'm not even sure what the question is in there.
[00:29:34] Speaker A: There was no question. That was a, that was just a comment of me, that kind of a compliment to loan officers that I think it's going to get back to the phone. It's going to, I don't know how people are going to pick up with all these spams. The country's got to figure that out, but it is going to get back to texting at least, or some sort of communication that's going to be more than just clicking and you know what's.
[00:29:56] Speaker C: Funny about this whole thing? And Michael, you'll appreciate this. The very first time I met Mike, he was trying to sell me a point of sale application. We went a different direction. He had the nerve to call me to tell me that I just made the biggest mistake in my career.
And now he's saying I've gone full circle.
[00:30:20] Speaker A: Oh, well, we didn't actually have the point of sale. That's why we lost to those other guys. But I shouldn't have given you that Tom Brady moment, because I didn't. He said it to Mister Kraft and proved himself right. If you actually tune into, we have an episode on my failures and how I bounce back and learn from that experience.
For those listeners out there on this podcast, it's not that many. It's here in season three. But, yeah, a lot of people say that I pioneered the point of sale in, but I really pioneered the mobile app. Our point of sale was not what it is today. And if it was, boy, I mean, we're invests and speaking on stage quite a bit more.
[00:31:01] Speaker C: Well, we both did okay.
[00:31:04] Speaker B: I think so. Bill, you mentioned about a few minutes ago regarding the agencies pushing back and asking for buybacks, Mike is talking about the point of sale. And I think one of the things that what I think is actually has been lost at the origination level platform is you can call it three, four, or five c's of lending. Right. It's credit collateral capacity to pay. And then sometimes people add character and then some. Yeah. And my point is that if the, like, when I was originating and I kind of still do it for private purposes, I would sit there and I want to get the basic fundamentals of a borrower. And I called it job job. I call it job job banks. And it was like, do they have a. Do the borrowers have job? And do they have the savings and the capacity for repayment in the event of some kind of future loss or something.
And I don't think that all this promotion of financial literacy within the industry itself, it doesn't take into at the point of sale enough just for the originator just to ask the simple question, how much do you earn and how much do you want to spend based upon how much you earn? And if the number is unrealistic, the originator can go and doesn't have to waste their time. And if the number is realistic, they can actually go through a point of sale application. How much do you have for a down payment? And kind of get to the crux of and I know we talked about trust and building, and part of that's building a rapport, but I think there's a little bit lost in the, in the past of utilizing the four scenes of lending credit, collateral, and capacity to pay. Do you think there could be a better way of projecting that message to the current originators and to future originators?
[00:32:57] Speaker C: Look, I always think there has to be an emphasis on quality and the quality of the loans that you do. And, you know, that is, your reputation in the industry is often around quality and compliance. And look, I think I'll answer it this way.
We had a CFPB audit, like in 2016 or 2017. In the opening interview, they asked me, how many employees do we have in our compliance department?
And I said something along the lines of 3256? And they looked at me and I'm like, every employee of American Pacific mortgage is in compliance. We have a culture of compliance, every employee. And so I wasn't sure whether that was a good answer or they thought I was cocky. But the audit went well.
[00:33:51] Speaker B: I love that. I don't think enough organizations emphasize that enough. And for you to say that is, it's refreshing, actually. I appreciate that.
[00:34:02] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:34:03] Speaker B: Yeah, and it's not. And I don't think the agencies were really being too fair because we've had a lack of inventory with higher interest rates. And for them to be able to push back onto the mortgage banker saying that the quality of mortgages has been bad, part of it is because there's less mortgages. And if they don't have know they've got compliance people at the agencies as well, if they don't have enough inventory to audit, they're going to be pushing back all the stuff that actually they would probably have passed in the past.
Yeah, they weren't really being, you know, it goes both ways. But I agree with 100% with what you're saying.
[00:34:37] Speaker C: You know, what I think is great about this interview, by the way?
[00:34:39] Speaker B: What's that?
[00:34:40] Speaker C: Is, you know, as everybody probably is aware, there's lists of possible questions. I picked out like, ten of them. You guys haven't asked me one yet, that everything is, everything is just kind of flying off the hook, and nothing that I prepared to answer has been asked. So let's not break that up. Let's just keep going.
[00:35:00] Speaker A: Yeah, let's. I mean, I actually have a random question for you then. Where the, like, the name come from, you know, american like, now that you're nationwide, it makes a lot of sense. But is there an origin story there?
[00:35:15] Speaker C: You know, what it was, you know, the Pacific was kind of obvious, right? Being West coast, the american, it represented our aspirations at the time to be, you know, a nationwide lender. And so we certainly weren't. It took us a long time to get there, but that, in our name, represented our aspirations and what we, you know, sought to achieve with our company.
[00:35:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Cause at the end of the day, it's about, like, the. The people you put in the. The homes. Right. And if you were to break that down, there's a lot of, I'm sure, amazing stories of people that didn't think they could own bought 14 years ago because of one of your loan officers. And I can't even imagine. I think that's the biggest story that I'm sure you have many stories of. But the amount of transformational wealth that has occurred over the last. All the people that you put in homes, especially in that timeframe and where they are now because of you guys, is. Has to be really special, and there's just never been.
[00:36:21] Speaker C: It is still the number one way to build wealth, the inventory and affordability.
It's kind of sad because it's preventing people from that opportunity that we all had.
Forget about the loans we did as American Pacific mortgage. The first home I bought in Buffalo, New York, with a 9.5% interest rate, FHA loan was the best financial decision of my life.
[00:36:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:48] Speaker A: And I guess the rate. It wasn't about the rate, right. Because you know what?
[00:36:52] Speaker C: It just. Rates had just gone under 10%, and I thought I had the best rate ever.
[00:36:57] Speaker A: So when you're with family and you're talking about being the leader of the company, when did it change in your history of sounding like, I originate loans to. I help loans so that people can get into homes, and there's a lot more than just originating alone. You got to build product, et cetera.
[00:37:20] Speaker C: I guess it was around the time when I realized for me to reach my career aspirations and sadness makes me leave Buffalo, New York, and that's when I migrated west to California, that I guess my ambition exceeded what I felt I could do there. And you know what? If I stayed, maybe I would have been, you know, built a great mortgage company out of there. But I, you know, that's when that turned the corner for me and my family, is when we decided to go to, you know, move to California.
[00:37:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I'd be a little scared, you know? Cause that must be scary for any loan officer. I don't even know how they do it. But your book of business is local, and you're believing in yourself enough that you think what you do is you can do it again in a new market. And that has to be scary to jump and not see where you're jumping to.
[00:38:16] Speaker C: You know what? It's funny you say that. We have a loan officer at our company that I'm super proud of who moved from San Diego to Mammoth, rebuilt her business, and is still a top 20 loan officer at American Pacific mortgage. And that's not even the reason I'm most proud of her. That's my daughter in law and the mother of two of my grandchildren. But she did it, and she rebuilt the business in a small community in the eastern sierras when they decided to move there. And I know it wasn't easy, and I know she's still working her ass up at that. So I don't know if she's probably not even watching, but love you, Kelly.
[00:38:57] Speaker B: You know, that seems to be in our last three interviews, even with David Battany. I think there seems to be a trend that when a person, whether in sales or in leadership, has an emotional feeling of attachment to success or to a cause, there's no question you got to burn everything that's behind in order to pursue what's forward. For example, like with David, it was his cause for a certain community in Los Angeles. And with George over at city, it was for him transferring from one country to another country. And for you, Bill, going from Buffalo to the west coast, you didn't look behind you. Nobody looked behind them. They just said, we just go forward. There was no. And there wasn't even a mirror to look backwards. It was like, this is what's going to happen. And whereas in sales, you're always looking, using past performance as an indicator of future production, instead of saying, I'm going to use future production, whether you're in sales and saying, I'm going to make more phone calls or whether you're an ops, instead of looking at all the failures and obstacles on what we slow down, we're going to say, oh, these are the efficiencies that we're creating so that sales can be better. And I appreciate, Bill, that when you're turning things upside down, that doesn't mean that you're looking from the bottom up. What it means is that you're looking forward to directional progress, not only for sales, but also in leadership and management. How do you think that having that same outlook and not looking behind, but looking forward, how do you think you can bring operations? Because in the last few years, we've seen a lot of layoffs and so on and so forth because of lack of business. But how can operations now move forward? Because we're about to enter potentially into a higher volume, higher unit market. How do you think operations can be worked with to look forward instead of saying, oh, we're about to get all this volume, how do you, what kind of attitude do you think they should be working with in management and in sales?
[00:41:07] Speaker C: Wow, that's a tough one, right. Because it has been a brutal couple of years. I mean, I do think, while I am not good at forecasting interest rates, I'm wrong way more than I'm right. I do think that we have reached the bottom. And whether it's going to be a sharp incline up or whether it's going to be small and incremental, I do think we have reached the bottom. I think operations, people that are still employed, I guess, can finally breathe a sigh of relief.
As long as they're productive, their jobs are going to be safe. And the people that unfortunately would have lost jobs over the last couple of years as the industry volume was cut in half virtually overnight.
If theyre still interested in the mortgage business, I think theres going to be some jobs to be at, but its never going to be for the faint of heart. It's just sad to say, but it's part of being the mortgage business and comes with the territory.
[00:42:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And fortunately for them, and it was a sad time, the economy was good, right. And so if rates do go down, maybe the economy's not as good. It'd be tougher to lose your, there was time to, at least it was during. We've all seen the bad economies and how hard it is to get jobs.
I did want to ask one from good to great, or that I came up with from there. But so I think many leaders, um, need to meet personal financial goals, right. And they sacrifice the ability to, to, to build or to go west, like, like you did. Um, and they're what the book calls it, the flywheel effect, which is a focus on providing great customer experience, which in turn leads to great loyalty, which in turn leads to increased sales. So what I mean is, as a loan officer, and I was one, too, youre trying to build up a big enough reserve or buy that house, whatever it is that youre so focused on getting the deals in while rates are going down this month, rather than maybe going a little slower working on the flywheel, whats that customer experience? Did I write a handwritten note? Did I mail it?
Obviously, you took the time to work on the flywheel, because you built more than just your own business. You have 3000 loan officers, um, and, you know, emulate you and look for you for leadership. So what, um, how do you not focus on big results right away? How were you able to stay disciplined and, and build something bigger?
[00:43:50] Speaker C: Whether you're building a business or whether you're coaching basketball. And I am a basketball. I was a basketball coach. I'm not anymore. I think through sports analogies, it's the pick and roll. It's the pass and cut. Like just the simple, basic stuff in building a company. What is your pick and roll? What is your pass and cut? Stick with that and don't change from that.
Believe in it. Believe in yourself. And I think sometimes the crazy cycles in our market get you away from the fundamentals. Like, I'm sitting here saying, it's all about the fundamentals. Except for 2020 and 2021, fundamentals got thrown out the window. We were just trying to keep up. So it's hard to maintain that discipline, but stick with the fundamentals.
[00:44:38] Speaker A: I think it's important for loan officers to understand there are companies, and you just heard how bill implements the flywheel through fundamentals. When you're searching for that next company, I'm sure the recruiters aren't calling and talking about the fundamentals, right. And all of that we've talked about on other shows, all that sugar coating that they do, you know, wears off after about 90 days. We even had on a show where they say that they think there's a different rate sheet. Somebody gets up in some companies after 90 days. And so, and I think that's why we do this show, because when you're searching for something, sometimes you just do two demos and you buy. And if it's a big moment in your life like that, whether you're moving across the country or you're just moving within your own town to a different logo that's going to represent you. It might be a good opportunity to take that from two to seven interviews yourself to make sure you find a company that has the fundamentals and not just the sugar.
[00:45:38] Speaker C: Just to add to that a little bit, Mike, is we never want our recruiters or branch managers. Don't lead with a rate sheet. Don't lead with, you know, this product or that product. We lead with. Let me show you our ESop plan document. Let me show you how you could be and will be an employee owner of American Pacific mortgage. Just by working, you don't have to write a check. By working, you're a part of it. It is a novel way to build wealth and that's what we lead with.
[00:46:14] Speaker B: Bill Dallas had his company called own it, but you literally brought it to the ownership table here. An originator or staff can own not only their business and also a part of the company as well.
[00:46:28] Speaker C: And by the way, Bill's legend, if he's watching, I admire that guy.
[00:46:33] Speaker A: Yeah, he's always to tuning in to see who we have on as a guest and what his next chapter is. Uh, another concept from the book is called the Hedgehog concept. Um, and it's not a goal to be the best, but a strategy to be the best, an intention to be the best, a plan to be the best. It's an understanding of what you can be the best at. So it says that there are three circles like what, what you're deeply passionate about. Let me get this right. What you're the best in the world at and what drives your economic engine. So it says if you go in the middle, and Mike, you kind of touched on this earlier with a question, but if you can go in the middle and find something that youre passionate about and it might be a type of loan, I suppose, right. Because were going to assume every loan officer is a loan officer and then what you can be the best at the world at and then your economic engine, which I think the ESop is a great example.
Do you have any advice to loan officers on what it might take in their journey of life to get to that point where they don't just have one driving it most of the time?
[00:47:36] Speaker C: I'm going to take a little different spin on that. I will answer your question, then I'm going to give you, I'm going to share with you some advice I got about ten years ago. The advice for any loan officer anybody is not being so transactional. Focus on being transformational and whether you're transforming yourself being a day one loan officer, or whether you're being transformational as you are a top producing loan officer, but are now navigating a market that has affordability challenges and inventory challenges. We had one of our company events about ten years ago. We had a very controversial keynote speaker. We had 1500 loan officer officers. There were Marquis Marriott and San Diego Packhouse. And our keynote speaker was Angelo Mazzillo. So Angelo, as most people know, is the CEO of Countrywide. And you can say what you want about countrywide. They were like the transformational IMB and they went from nothing to the largest lender in the world. And before he got unspoken. I had an opportunity to have lunch with Angelo, and I was like, okay, im the CEO.
Youre the goat. Can you give me a couple of bits of advice? And he gave me two. His first one was he highly recommended that I keep a change of clothes and multiple suits in my private airplane. And I said, mister Mazzillo, I'm just trying to get ported a one through 15 on southwest. I don't have a plane.
So then he went on and said, as a CEO, think about being transformational, not transactional. And if your things that you're doing in your to do list becomes too transactional, you're not being a leader. And I think sometimes maybe we all get caught up in that. It was like, oh, shit, I was really busy today. What'd you do? I cleared emails. I made six phone calls. Are you being transformational? And so that is something that I always try to remind myself when I buy myself getting into the weeds, and I remind the future leaders at American Pacific mortgage of that.
[00:49:57] Speaker A: Yeah, ill just say one quick piece there. I can see as a loan officer when I was one, youre looking at the same pipelines, a lot of your prospects, and youre getting transact. I got transactional. Oh, if the rates just dropped, this I'll, and to have an infrastructure like American Pacific that believes and tells you be transformational. If you had just got out of the office for an hour and went down and supported the little League or cooked hamburgers and just like, this is our mike and I started this to prove we could do it. And then we became almost like gym buddies, where if somebody wasn't in the mood to do it one week, get on camera, the other person would say, do it now. This is our 75th week in a row doing it. And we've been in many different towns, conferences. I did one from the hospital the other day, and we only skip Thanksgiving, but that part is that 1 hour now, 75 weeks later, feels transformational. And having people like you on here, when I go to conferences, whether they watched it or not, they certainly were aware that you were on here and tried to catch some of it. And that part is transformational. And if I just focused on my transactionally, I can see why. This is my point. I think it helps to have a support system that likes the fundamentals, like you said, to help you make sure that you're doing transformational stuff, because it's very easy to chase transactional.
[00:51:28] Speaker C: Well, you guys are doing great work. I appreciate your show. I think it fits nicely into my core values. Now when the things that I'm valuing and the things that I'm working on now, 63 and near the end of my career and I'm privileged enough to do the work that I want to do, not that I have to do. And doing things like this and having conversations with you guys doing my MBA work, I love that stuff and I can keep doing that forever. The other stuff maybe burned me out a little bit, but I have the opportunity to do what I want, not what I have to do.
[00:52:04] Speaker A: Yeah. To conclude, and Mike always does the final thought, but where will people see you over the next year? Will you be doing another tour across the country? Is it at go to the conferences and see you there? Is it, you know, don't be afraid to stop into one of your offices, like, where will people see you over the next year?
[00:52:26] Speaker C: That's a great question. I think my board of directors wants me to answer that for them as well. Look, I'm going to focus on my advocacy work. So that means spending time in DC, going to conferences. I'm also going to focus on the key relationships for American Pacific mortgage, like our relationship with Fannie and Freddie and our warehouse banks. And I'm also going to focus on relationships with our top producers.
I can't get too far removed from them.
They humble me very quickly and they teach me what I need to know to be a better leader.
[00:53:04] Speaker B: Bill, Eleanor Roosevelt has a quote I'd like to read over to you because this is how I feel about not only this interview that we're having with you, but I. I feel how you've done your business to grow from a broker to a national organization.
And for you as a regional, state and national leader, this goes like this. Many people will walk in and out of your life, but only true friends will leave footprints in your heart and what you've been able to accomplish, first as a leader, as a broker, and then to build up your business so that you would have hundreds of people working with you and then to be on a regional state basis and have thousands of people looking up to you and then be on a national level and have tens of thousands of people within the industry to be able to say, these are the footprints that you're leaving upon the heart of the industry in itself. And I have a sincere and deep appreciation for this interview because you've been able to verbalize it in the way that you do business, transform business, and conduct your business. So I appreciate this interview for all that you've been able to provide and not only the wisdom that you're providing and also the type of leadership that you're continuing to lead at American Pacific.
[00:54:17] Speaker A: Yes. Thank you, Bill.
[00:54:18] Speaker C: Wow, that's high praise. I'm not sure I'm worthy, but I appreciate that so much.
[00:54:23] Speaker B: And so with that, we're at the top of the hour, and of course, we're recording the mic'd up show every Thursday at 11:00 a.m. pacific and I 02:00 p.m. eastern.
[00:54:34] Speaker A: And the nicest thing you can do is subscribe to any place you're listening to this.
